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Thread started 02/14/19 4:36pm

luvsexy4all

THE Icons of music

Elvis

Beatles

Rolling Stones

Led Zeppelin

Micheal Jackson

Madonna

Bruce Springsteen

....is Prince considered part of this elite group???

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Reply #1 posted 02/14/19 4:55pm

EmmaMcG

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Asking this question on a fansite dedicated to Prince? I think you know what the majority will say.
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Reply #2 posted 02/14/19 5:25pm

TrivialPursuit

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EmmaMcG said:

Asking this question on a fansite dedicated to Prince? I think you know what the majority will say.


I mean... consider the source.

This experience will cover courtship, sex, commitment, fetishes, loneliness, vindication, love, and hate.
http://bit.ly/1D3FG2U
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Reply #3 posted 02/14/19 7:00pm

teoalcantara

Yes and no.


Among musicians, definitely.


Among fans, obviously.


To the general public, sadly, the answer would be: "I think I've heard of him, refresh my memory".


[Edited 2/15/19 4:07am]

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Reply #4 posted 02/14/19 7:21pm

skywalker

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luvsexy4all said:

Elvis

Beatles

Rolling Stones

Led Zeppelin

Micheal Jackson

Madonna

Bruce Springsteen

....is Prince considered part of this elite group???

Um, this list/group is suspect at best.

1. This skews waaaaaaay towards a baby boomer demographic. 12 year olds today know jack squat about The Stones and Bruce, etc.

-

2. There are some MAJOR glaring OMISSIONS:

Stevie Wonder? Jimi Hendrix? James Brown? Pink Floyd? Frank Sinatra? Johnny Cash? Little Richard? Aretha? 2Pac? Kurt Cobain? Eminem? Surely, if Madonna and Bruce make the cut, these folks do too. U2 should probably be on this too.

-

3. What is this list based on? ICON status? What does that really mean? Like, you see an image an instantly recognize them? Hit songs? Sold out tours? I mean, KISS is an iconic band...does that make them "elite"? Pro Sports teams in Minnesota often wear Prince themed gear? What sports franchise is routinely sporting Zeppelin themed uniforms?

-

Bottom Line: Prince checks all the boxes for all time greats easily. Sales, accolades, cultural impact, impact on gender, race, fashion, artist rights, censorship issues, etc. Hell, I think he was the 1st artist since The Beatles to have the #1 song, album, and film simultaneously.

-

Now, if we are talking about how successfully Prince's "brand" is being marketed....that is a different topic.

[Edited 2/14/19 20:01pm]

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Reply #5 posted 02/14/19 7:23pm

skywalker

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teoalcantara said:

Yes and no.


Among musicians, definetly.


Among fans, obviously.


To the general public, sadly, the answer would be: "I think I've heard of him, refresh my memory".

[Edited 2/14/19 19:01pm]

What general public? The general public that watches The Superbowl by the millions and instantly recognizes Prince as (likely) the best halftime show they have ever seen? I mean, the masses are stupid. That said, even those who are too young, or too ignorant, know Purple Rain and prince ...bare minimum.

[Edited 2/14/19 19:26pm]

"New Power slide...."
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Reply #6 posted 02/14/19 7:41pm

teoalcantara

skywalker said:

teoalcantara said:

Yes and no.


Among musicians, definetly.


Among fans, obviously.


To the general public, sadly, the answer would be: "I think I've heard of him, refresh my memory".

[Edited 2/14/19 19:01pm]

What general public? The general public that watches The Superbowl by the millions and instantly recognizes Prince as (likely) the best halftime show they have ever seen? I mean, the masses are stupid. That said, even those who are too young, or too ignorant, know Purple Rain and prince ...bare minimum.

[Edited 2/14/19 19:24pm]


I don't know if the millions that watch the Superbowl "instantly recognizes Prince as (likely) the best halftime show they have ever seen". But ask around and see if people you know in general can name a Prince song other than (perhaps by name recognition/association only) "Purple Rain". As you said, most likely they know the bare minimum.






[Edited 2/14/19 19:42pm]

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Reply #7 posted 02/14/19 7:44pm

skywalker

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teoalcantara said:

skywalker said:

What general public? The general public that watches The Superbowl by the millions and instantly recognizes Prince as (likely) the best halftime show they have ever seen? I mean, the masses are stupid. That said, even those who are too young, or too ignorant, know Purple Rain and prince ...bare minimum.

[Edited 2/14/19 19:24pm]


I don't know if the millions that watch the Superbowl "instantly recognizes Prince as (likely) the best halftime show they have ever seen". But ask around and see if people you know in general can name a Prince song other than (perhaps by name recognition/association only) "Purple Rain". As you said, most likely they know the bare minimum.






[Edited 2/14/19 19:42pm]

What I mean is, every year every major site/publications put out the same lists come out ranking the halftime shows and Prince's cute little face is always near the top. That's one of the defining moments in pop culture and he's at the center of it.

[Edited 2/14/19 19:45pm]

"New Power slide...."
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Reply #8 posted 02/14/19 8:01pm

teoalcantara

skywalker said:

teoalcantara said:


I don't know if the millions that watch the Superbowl "instantly recognizes Prince as (likely) the best halftime show they have ever seen". But ask around and see if people you know in general can name a Prince song other than (perhaps by name recognition/association only) "Purple Rain". As you said, most likely they know the bare minimum.






[Edited 2/14/19 19:42pm]

What I mean is, every year every major site/publications put out the same lists come out ranking the halftime shows and Prince's cute little face is always near the top. That's one of the defining moments in pop culture and he's at the center of it.

[Edited 2/14/19 19:45pm]


Yes, but those lists are made by music critics, journalists, people usually more informed. Prince was a musical genius, but sadly he isn't popular.

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Reply #9 posted 02/14/19 8:03pm

skywalker

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teoalcantara said:

skywalker said:

What I mean is, every year every major site/publications put out the same lists come out ranking the halftime shows and Prince's cute little face is always near the top. That's one of the defining moments in pop culture and he's at the center of it.

[Edited 2/14/19 19:45pm]


Yes, but those lists are made by music critics, journalists, people usually more informed. Prince was a musical genius, but sadly he isn't popular.

1. You have to be "popular" to play the superbowl halftime show. Especially without supporting/guest acts. They don't book acts for that gig that aren't MASSIVELY known.

-

2. What is popular? What are you using to compare/contrast? I am a fan a Queen. Suddenly, they are "popular" again. Why? A marketing machine made them "popular" with a movie and related commercialism. It is marketing bullshit, really. Spoon feed the public a decent movie and suddenly "everyone is a Queen fan."

[Edited 2/14/19 20:06pm]

"New Power slide...."
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Reply #10 posted 02/14/19 8:53pm

teoalcantara

skywalker said:

teoalcantara said:


Yes, but those lists are made by music critics, journalists, people usually more informed. Prince was a musical genius, but sadly he isn't popular.

1. You have to be "popular" to play the superbowl halftime show. Especially without supporting/guest acts. They don't book acts for that gig that aren't MASSIVELY known.

-

2. What is popular? What are you using to compare/contrast? I am a fan a Queen. Suddenly, they are "popular" again. Why? A marketing machine made them "popular" with a movie and related commercialism. It is marketing bullshit, really. Spoon feed the public a decent movie and suddenly "everyone is a Queen fan."

[Edited 2/14/19 20:06pm]


I think they've banked more on his prestige with the media and his capacity to electrify live audiences than on his popularity per se. The producers knew he would put on a great show and also attract the headlines.



Queen has songs still immensely popular. "We Will Rock You" is so much of an anthem that Prince himself used it on the opening of his Super Bowl performance.


Popular is something widely known and enjoyed by the masses. Prince was popular in 1984 (35 years ago!).


Prince is second to none for me, but I recognize that the great majority don't know him well.





[Edited 2/14/19 20:56pm]

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Reply #11 posted 02/14/19 10:23pm

MickyDolenz

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teoalcantara said:

Yes, but those lists are made by music critics, journalists, people usually more informed.

Informed of what? Critics don't sell records. From what I've noticed, critics often don't like what is really popular with mainstream audiences such the Saturday Night Fever soundtrack, New Kids On The Block, Whitney Houston, Wham!, MC Hammer, Barry Manilow, Kenny G, Garth Brooks, Journey, Celine Dion, Bon Jovi, Eagles, etc. Same with TV shows, movies, or anything else. Were Jackie Collins books popular with critics? Probably not, but they sold well. What about popular movie series like Ma & Pa Kettle, Police Academy, Ernest P. Worrell or Madea?

For 65 years straight, the #1 genre in music, selling wise, was rock n' roll worldwide. Last year (2017) in June, it got de-crowned by hip hop. Hip hop is the #1 genre. It's hip hop - rock - country - pop or pop - country. ~ Pras
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Reply #12 posted 02/14/19 10:53pm

teoalcantara

MickyDolenz said:

teoalcantara said:

Yes, but those lists are made by music critics, journalists, people usually more informed.

Informed of what? Critics don't sell records. From what I've noticed, critics often don't like what is really popular with mainstream audiences such the Saturday Night Fever soundtrack, New Kids On The Block, Whitney Houston, Wham!, MC Hammer, Barry Manilow, Kenny G, Garth Brooks, Journey, Celine Dion, Bon Jovi, Eagles, etc. Same with TV shows, movies, or anything else. Were Jackie Collins books popular with critics? Probably not, but they sold well. What about popular movie series like Ma & Pa Kettle, Police Academy, Ernest P. Worrell or Madea?



You are just basically corroborating what I've said. Critics don't necessarily go by what's popular or not, and popularity doesn't always equate to quality.




[Edited 2/14/19 22:54pm]

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Reply #13 posted 02/15/19 12:08am

MickyDolenz

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teoalcantara said:

Critics don't necessarily go by what's popular or not, and popularity doesn't always equate to quality.

Quality is an opinion of the listener. People don't buy stuff they don't like, so whatever sold a lot is quality to the people who bought it or listened to it. Just because a critic likes something does not make it good to someone else. Rock magazines say Sgt Pepper is the best album in history, but my mom doesn't listen to The Beatles or rock music at all, so that is not an opinion valid to her. She'll probably say a Temptations, Johnnie Taylor, or Al Green album is better. I have other relatives that don't listen to secular music, only gospel/spirituals. So no one in the OP list is an icon to them, but Shirley Caesar or The Clark Sisters might be. A person might say they don't like new age, country, smooth jazz, or hip hop, but that doesn't mean anything to fans of those genres.

For 65 years straight, the #1 genre in music, selling wise, was rock n' roll worldwide. Last year (2017) in June, it got de-crowned by hip hop. Hip hop is the #1 genre. It's hip hop - rock - country - pop or pop - country. ~ Pras
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Reply #14 posted 02/15/19 12:58am

teoalcantara

MickyDolenz said:

teoalcantara said:

Critics don't necessarily go by what's popular or not, and popularity doesn't always equate to quality.

Quality is an opinion of the listener. People don't buy stuff they don't like, so whatever sold a lot is quality to the people who bought it or listened to it. Just because a critic likes something does not make it good to someone else. Rock magazines say Sgt Pepper is the best album in history, but my mom doesn't listen to The Beatles or rock music at all, so that is not an opinion valid to her. She'll probably say a Temptations, Johnnie Taylor, or Al Green album is better. I have other relatives that don't listen to secular music, only gospel/spirituals. So no one in the OP list is an icon to them, but Shirley Caesar or The Clark Sisters might be. A person might say they don't like new age, country, smooth jazz, or hip hop, but that doesn't mean anything to fans of those genres.


I'd argue that taste is an opinion of the listener, not quality.



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Reply #15 posted 02/15/19 4:54am

TheFman

luvsexy4all said:

Elvis

Beatles

Rolling Stones

Led Zeppelin

Micheal Jackson

Madonna

Bruce Springsteen

....is Prince considered part of this elite group???

unfortunately not. Even in our part of Europe, he's always been overlooked. Luckily for me there's this newer radio station that really knows music, and i dare say that our man is spinned the most of all artists. But that's really exceptional.
They even spin things like entire maxi's of The Time smile Don't think you find that anywhere else in Europe (internetradio not included).
But save to say that people under 25 mostly won't know even who P is. Hell, i even spoke with under-25's who never heard of Madonna, go figure!

[Edited 2/15/19 4:56am]

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Reply #16 posted 02/15/19 5:04am

TheFman

Elvis

Beatles

Rolling Stones

Queen

Michael Jackson


I guess that's your top 5 of the biggest icons. Personally i wouldn't put Queen in that list, but somehow they managed to make that step up from megastars to immortals. I think that Freddie's death plays big part in that.

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Reply #17 posted 02/15/19 5:21am

MotownSubdivis
ion

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TheFman said:



luvsexy4all said:


Elvis


Beatles


Rolling Stones


Led Zeppelin


Micheal Jackson


Madonna


Bruce Springsteen




....is Prince considered part of this elite group???



unfortunately not. Even in our part of Europe, he's always been overlooked. Luckily for me there's this newer radio station that really knows music, and i dare say that our man is spinned the most of all artists. But that's really exceptional.
They even spin things like entire maxi's of The Time smile Don't think you find that anywhere else in Europe (internetradio not included).
But save to say that people under 25 mostly won't know even who P is. Hell, i even spoke with under-25's who never heard of Madonna, go figure!


[Edited 2/15/19 4:56am]

As someone who actually turned 25 last month, I can say without a doubt those under-25 year olds are ignorant. However, I am American so my reality is not their's, assuming that those people you're talking about also live in the same part of Europe as you.
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Reply #18 posted 02/15/19 5:26am

MotownSubdivis
ion

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As for the topic, Prince is an icon and is very popular but there is a hierarchy here and at the absolute top will always be Elvis, The Beatles and Michael Jackson (arguably in that order). Everyone else falls underneath those 3 entities to varying degrees; P himself, would probably rank somewhere on the latter half of the Top 10.
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Reply #19 posted 02/15/19 6:03am

skywalker

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I think they've banked more on his prestige with the media and his capacity to electrify live audiences than on his popularity per se. The producers knew he would put on a great show and also attract the headlines.



Queen has songs still immensely popular. "We Will Rock You" is so much of an anthem that Prince himself used it on the opening of his Super Bowl performance.


Popular is something widely known and enjoyed by the masses. Prince was popular in 1984 (35 years ago!).


Prince is second to none for me, but I recognize that the great majority don't know him well.





[Edited 2/14/19 20:56pm]

Your reasoning is missing the mark for me. Prestige. Is that not the same as popularity? You said, "Prestige with the media"....Prince was often at odds (and downright combative) with the media.

-

Again, your logic is off to me. Much of what you are saying can easily be applied to Prince. Prince has songs that are still immensely popular. "I would Die 4 U" was used by Justin Timberlake in his Superbowl performance...furthermore, it was completely centered around Prince and his image. Whereas, Prince's use of "We will Rock You" was a much more brief intro, rather than showcasing Queen or Freddie Mercury.

-

Don't be silly, you know Prince was widely known and enjoyed by the masses after 1984. Some of Prince's biggest successes came AFTER 1984.This is like saying that Queen went into obscurity after the 1970's. It's simply not true. Every career has peaks and valleys.

-

Prince is one of the most famous musicians that ever lived. It's just a fact. Just because people you talk to are unaware or not fans....doesn't change the fact.

-

Listen, most people I talk to under the age of 45 are vaguely aware of Led Zeppelin. That doesn't change or diminish their impact or popularity. Again, I teach middle school students. They have no idea who Mick Jagger is. Does that make The Stones "unpopular" or "unknown"?

-

After reading this thread again, I feel like you may be using the term "popular" to mean "trendy."

[Edited 2/15/19 6:46am]

"New Power slide...."
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Reply #20 posted 02/15/19 7:28am

skywalker

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MotownSubdivision said:

As for the topic, Prince is an icon and is very popular but there is a hierarchy here and at the absolute top will always be Elvis, The Beatles and Michael Jackson (arguably in that order). Everyone else falls underneath those 3 entities to varying degrees; P himself, would probably rank somewhere on the latter half of the Top 10.

I tend to agree with this. Do you think we will have another musician/group that has the impact of these 3?

"New Power slide...."
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Reply #21 posted 02/15/19 9:26am

MickyDolenz

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teoalcantara said:

I'd argue that taste is an opinion of the listener, not quality.

You can't prove that one performer's record is better than another. It's an opinion, not a fact. Just because a music snob or critic thinks something is better does not make it so. Just because someone plays an instrument or writes their own songs does not make his or her music better than someone who doesn't. Somebody like Yngwie Malmsteen might play faster than B. B. King, but that does not make his music better or appealing. Music is not like sports where there is a winner or loser by running faster or getting the most points or a bodybuilding competition where the biggest person wins.

For 65 years straight, the #1 genre in music, selling wise, was rock n' roll worldwide. Last year (2017) in June, it got de-crowned by hip hop. Hip hop is the #1 genre. It's hip hop - rock - country - pop or pop - country. ~ Pras
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Reply #22 posted 02/15/19 10:42am

purple05

teoalcantara said:



MickyDolenz said:




teoalcantara said:


Critics don't necessarily go by what's popular or not, and popularity doesn't always equate to quality.



Quality is an opinion of the listener. People don't buy stuff they don't like, so whatever sold a lot is quality to the people who bought it or listened to it. Just because a critic likes something does not make it good to someone else. Rock magazines say Sgt Pepper is the best album in history, but my mom doesn't listen to The Beatles or rock music at all, so that is not an opinion valid to her. She'll probably say a Temptations, Johnnie Taylor, or Al Green album is better. I have other relatives that don't listen to secular music, only gospel/spirituals. So no one in the OP list is an icon to them, but Shirley Caesar or The Clark Sisters might be. A person might say they don't like new age, country, smooth jazz, or hip hop, but that doesn't mean anything to fans of those genres.




I'd argue that taste is an opinion of the listener, not quality.





Quality is subjective. It’s defined by the person.
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Reply #23 posted 02/15/19 10:42am

MotownSubdivis
ion

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skywalker said:



MotownSubdivision said:


As for the topic, Prince is an icon and is very popular but there is a hierarchy here and at the absolute top will always be Elvis, The Beatles and Michael Jackson (arguably in that order). Everyone else falls underneath those 3 entities to varying degrees; P himself, would probably rank somewhere on the latter half of the Top 10.


I tend to agree with this. Do you think we will have another musician/group that has the impact of these 3?

IDK. The way the world of music is structured now, especially on a mainstream level, it doesn't lend itself to allow an artist to flourish to such ubiquitous, impactful heights anymore.

Anything is possible but with how low everything has sunk, it's extremely unlikely to see such larger than life stars in music now.
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Reply #24 posted 02/15/19 10:47am

purple05

MickyDolenz said:



teoalcantara said:


I'd argue that taste is an opinion of the listener, not quality.



You can't prove that one performer's record is better than another. It's an opinion, not a fact. Just because a music snob or critic thinks something is better does not make it so. Just because someone plays an instrument or writes their own songs does not make his or her music better than someone who doesn't. Somebody like Yngwie Malmsteen might play faster than B. B. King, but that does not make his music better or appealing. Music is not like sports where there is a winner or loser by running faster or getting the most points or a bodybuilding competition where the biggest person wins.


EXACTLY
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Reply #25 posted 02/15/19 12:16pm

luvsexy4all

Prince called himself an Icon......but i dont think others put him in the regard as the list i mentioned

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Reply #26 posted 02/15/19 2:13pm

MickyDolenz

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luvsexy4all said:

Prince called himself an Icon.

Wouldn't that be considered idolatry by the Jehovah's Witnesses?

For 65 years straight, the #1 genre in music, selling wise, was rock n' roll worldwide. Last year (2017) in June, it got de-crowned by hip hop. Hip hop is the #1 genre. It's hip hop - rock - country - pop or pop - country. ~ Pras
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Reply #27 posted 02/15/19 2:55pm

skywalker

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luvsexy4all said:

Prince called himself an Icon......but i dont think others put him in the regard as the list i mentioned

You are ignorant. Others* clearly do. Do you actually need evidence of this? Can you just, you know, use google? Dig this, when Prince died, national monuments all over the world were lit up with purple lights. How much more evidence do you need?

_

*AKA the rest of the civilized world

[Edited 2/15/19 15:00pm]

"New Power slide...."
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Reply #28 posted 02/15/19 5:21pm

RJOrion

LOL...icons to whom?..
Queen, boring ass Bruce Springsteen, and Led fuckin Zeppelin?... but no James Brown, Diana Ross, or Prince???

ok i can already see where this one is going...smh... did the meaning of ICON change in the dictionary recently?...or is it a designation only available for people of a specific demographic?
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Reply #29 posted 02/15/19 7:28pm

teoalcantara

skywalker said:


I think they've banked more on his prestige with the media and his capacity to electrify live audiences than on his popularity per se. The producers knew he would put on a great show and also attract the headlines.



Queen has songs still immensely popular. "We Will Rock You" is so much of an anthem that Prince himself used it on the opening of his Super Bowl performance.


Popular is something widely known and enjoyed by the masses. Prince was popular in 1984 (35 years ago!).


Prince is second to none for me, but I recognize that the great majority don't know him well.





[Edited 2/14/19 20:56pm]

Your reasoning is missing the mark for me. Prestige. Is that not the same as popularity? You said, "Prestige with the media"....Prince was often at odds (and downright combative) with the media.

-

Again, your logic is off to me. Much of what you are saying can easily be applied to Prince. Prince has songs that are still immensely popular. "I would Die 4 U" was used by Justin Timberlake in his Superbowl performance...furthermore, it was completely centered around Prince and his image. Whereas, Prince's use of "We will Rock You" was a much more brief intro, rather than showcasing Queen or Freddie Mercury.

-

Don't be silly, you know Prince was widely known and enjoyed by the masses after 1984. Some of Prince's biggest successes came AFTER 1984.This is like saying that Queen went into obscurity after the 1970's. It's simply not true. Every career has peaks and valleys.

-

Prince is one of the most famous musicians that ever lived. It's just a fact. Just because people you talk to are unaware or not fans....doesn't change the fact.

-

Listen, most people I talk to under the age of 45 are vaguely aware of Led Zeppelin. That doesn't change or diminish their impact or popularity. Again, I teach middle school students. They have no idea who Mick Jagger is. Does that make The Stones "unpopular" or "unknown"?

-

After reading this thread again, I feel like you may be using the term "popular" to mean "trendy."

[Edited 2/15/19 6:46am]




Prestige does not mean popularity. One can have prestige without being popular. A PHD for example. He may enjoy prestige among his peers, but is he popular? Not necessarily.

Prince was often at odds (and downright combative) with the media, but the media was not at odds with him. He was respected, but also elusive. And this is one of the reasons his popularity dwindled over the years.


"I Would Die 4 U" was beautifully used by Justin Timberlake in his Super Bowl performance because of its lyrics (IMHO) not because of its popularity. He centered the performance around his image so to appear as a direct message from Prince himself to his fans and hometown: he had died for his fans, for his city (the game was being held in Minneapolis). It's a shame so many people didn't get the significance and criticized the tribute. Justin avoided being obvious and got lambasted.


I'm not being silly. Prince's last single to hit the top 10 charts was in 1994, when "The Most Beautiful Girl in the World", reached #3. After that, "I Hate U" reached #12 (1995), "Greatest Romance" #63 (2000) and "Call My Name" #75 (2004) (https://www.billboard.com/articles/columns/chart-beat/483652/princes-40-biggest-billboard-hits).


I think you've nailed down our difference in perspective: semantics. There's fame, popularity and trend. Prince is famous, was popular for a long period (most of the 80's and 90's) and also "trendy" in 1984.


[Edited 2/15/19 20:17pm]

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