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Reply #30 posted 10/05/03 6:35pm

bohemia

have another read of bohemia's post...he seems to understand what i'm talking about.

.
[This message was edited Sun Oct 5 17:48:06 PDT 2003 by mrdespues]
[/quote]


Ummm, he's a she... but thanks!
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Reply #31 posted 10/05/03 6:37pm

mrdespues

bohemia said:

have another read of bohemia's post...he seems to understand what i'm talking about.

.
[This message was edited Sun Oct 5 17:48:06 PDT 2003 by mrdespues]



Ummm, he's a she... but thanks![/quote]

oops redface sorry!
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Reply #32 posted 10/05/03 6:49pm

bohemia

mrdespues said:

bohemia said:

have another read of bohemia's post...he seems to understand what i'm talking about.

.
[This message was edited Sun Oct 5 17:48:06 PDT 2003 by mrdespues]



Ummm, he's a she... but thanks!


oops redface sorry![/quote]


That's okay, just like yourself, I don't have any "feminine/masculine camp androgynous image" issues!!

LOL!!!
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Reply #33 posted 10/05/03 7:56pm

Supernova

avatar

mrdespues said:[quote]

Supernova said:

mrdespues said:

Supernova said:

And if singing in falsetto in general bugs you, it's most likely because it's not part of your culture.

That is quite an assumption you've got there about "my culture"!

I never said I didn't like the falsetto - I love it. My point is, I think a lot of people can't get past a guy singing like a girl most of the time.

"Singing like a girl" is the equivalent of singing falsetto? I stand by my post.

Me, I have no problem with it...he uses that kind of vocal to a great musical effect in my opinion...but it's not something that doesn't always go over well with everyone, is my point.

Quite obviously.

I think a lot of people my like the rest of his music if it weren't for his feminine/masculine camp androgynous image(which again, I have no problem with.

You've already pointed out his current image, which doesn't exactly jibe with how you're describing him in this post. In fact, the more you post about it, the more you're contradicting yourself.


You're still missing my point. I have no problem with the way he sings...

OK, then the "you" I used is for those who generally have a dislike for it.


On top of your point about "falsetto culture", Supernova - I am a singer myself (and I sing falsetto frequently), I have a band and I have been emersed in such culture since I was very young. I have sung and played a number of different instruments since I was 8 years old. I attended the Conservatorium of Music here in Sydney for 3 years...singing falsetto was not something I personally had a problem with. The "falsetto culture" argument is weak.

Now here you go missing MY point. If you can point out where I EVER said that nobody outside of that culture can sing falsetto you'd have a point. But I never said anything close to that, now did I? That seems like defensiveness on your part. And I never said anything close to "falsetto culture" - that's your description, so your presumptuous assertions are what's weak.

Now let me spell it out for you since you have a hard time grasping it, and since for some reason it SEEMS you think you're the only one qualified to know what you're talking about: formally and informally I've studied and played music, since I was 11 years old. In high school on thru college I started studying the history of different genres, particularly genres developed in America. In BLACK culture singing falsetto is NOT considered "girly", by any means. That sort of machismo is reserved for philistines.

From Curtis Mayfield, to Smokey Robinson, to Eddie Kendricks, to Philip Bailey, to Marvin Gaye, etc. All very MANLY men who never did the androgynous camp thing, I assure you. rolleyes It's part of the history, fabric and tradition of Black vocal musical styles, moreso than in any other style of American music you'll hear this technique used in Black American developed genres. The people on this site and elsewhere who *I've* heard complain about it do not come from Black culture, and are generally attuned to and prefer more Rock idioms. Yes, I understand you said it's not what you think, but what some others you know think. This does not mean anybody from any other culture cannot in this style. Nothing more, nothing less. Get it? Got it? Good. horns



`
[This message was edited Sun Oct 5 20:37:02 PDT 2003 by Supernova]
This post not for the wimp contingent. All whiny wusses avert your eyes.
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Reply #34 posted 10/05/03 11:55pm

mrdespues

Supernova said:[quote]

mrdespues said:

Supernova said:

mrdespues said:

Supernova said:

And if singing in falsetto in general bugs you, it's most likely because it's not part of your culture.

That is quite an assumption you've got there about "my culture"!

I never said I didn't like the falsetto - I love it. My point is, I think a lot of people can't get past a guy singing like a girl most of the time.

"Singing like a girl" is the equivalent of singing falsetto? I stand by my post.

Me, I have no problem with it...he uses that kind of vocal to a great musical effect in my opinion...but it's not something that doesn't always go over well with everyone, is my point.

Quite obviously.

I think a lot of people my like the rest of his music if it weren't for his feminine/masculine camp androgynous image(which again, I have no problem with.

You've already pointed out his current image, which doesn't exactly jibe with how you're describing him in this post. In fact, the more you post about it, the more you're contradicting yourself.


You're still missing my point. I have no problem with the way he sings...

OK, then the "you" I used is for those who generally have a dislike for it.


On top of your point about "falsetto culture", Supernova - I am a singer myself (and I sing falsetto frequently), I have a band and I have been emersed in such culture since I was very young. I have sung and played a number of different instruments since I was 8 years old. I attended the Conservatorium of Music here in Sydney for 3 years...singing falsetto was not something I personally had a problem with. The "falsetto culture" argument is weak.

Now here you go missing MY point. If you can point out where I EVER said that nobody outside of that culture can sing falsetto you'd have a point. But I never said anything close to that, now did I? That seems like defensiveness on your part. And I never said anything close to "falsetto culture" - that's your description, so your presumptuous assertions are what's weak.

Now let me spell it out for you since you have a hard time grasping it, and since for some reason it SEEMS you think you're the only one qualified to know what you're talking about: formally and informally I've studied and played music, since I was 11 years old. In high school on thru college I started studying the history of different genres, particularly genres developed in America. In BLACK culture singing falsetto is NOT considered "girly", by any means. That sort of machismo is reserved for philistines.

From Curtis Mayfield, to Smokey Robinson, to Eddie Kendricks, to Philip Bailey, to Marvin Gaye, etc. All very MANLY men who never did the androgynous camp thing, I assure you. rolleyes It's part of the history, fabric and tradition of Black vocal musical styles, moreso than in any other style of American music you'll hear this technique used in Black American developed genres. The people on this site and elsewhere who *I've* heard complain about it do not come from Black culture, and are generally attuned to and prefer more Rock idioms. Yes, I understand you said it's not what you think, but what some others you know think. This does not mean anybody from any other culture cannot in this style. Nothing more, nothing less. Get it? Got it? Good. horns



`
[This message was edited Sun Oct 5 20:37:02 PDT 2003 by Supernova]



Holy crap, you get more arrogant with every post, don't you?

You've got your head so far up your own bottom that you still haven't realised that it is not ME that has a problem with falsetto! I AM TALKING ABOUT OTHER PEOPLE! So stop dumping this shit on ME, please.

I GREW UP on fuckin' motown, stevie wonder, all that shit AND every fuckin' style of jazz, WHICH I know how to play very well on saxophone and guitar thank you very much.

Now please, bugger off with your stupid assumptions. Of course I'm being DEFENSIVE when you keep suggesting that I have a problem with falsetto...you have totally, totally missed the point. AGAIN, it is with OTHER people (non-fans, get it - not me) that I think these suggestions to his sound and image might go over well with. But honestly I wish I'd never created this thread now...so much effort in trying to EXPLAIIIN.

The thing is, I don't usually go around showing off about it, but I have an expansive knowledge of all kinds of black music, since it is my favourite kind of music. You really should stop assuming so much about me because I am white and from Australia! Oh lordy...

rolleyes

.
[This message was edited Sun Oct 5 23:56:35 PDT 2003 by mrdespues]
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Reply #35 posted 10/06/03 1:26am

MrBliss

Supernova said:

MrBliss said:

Supernova said:

MrBliss said:

Supernova said:

And if singing in falsetto in general bugs you, it's most likely because it's not part of your culture.




or you just don't like the sound of it

Yes, and those that don't, ON THIS SITE, tend not to come from the same culture that falsetto singing is common in.



you mean they're not irish, so they're not used to hearing bono do "lemon"?

Oh, Bliss. You're such a card. biggrin As if to point out an Irish guy singing falsetto proves some point. Don't forget to add Jeff Buckley and John Lennon to that list. Actually what it does prove is that Bono obviously has a much more varied taste in music than those who complain about falsetto singing. As did the others.


`
[This message was edited Sun Oct 5 14:33:42 PDT 2003 by Supernova]


i'm not trying to prove a point...i was joking... but the concept that if a person doesn't like falsetto it's because they're not black is so ridiculous it blows my mind
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Reply #36 posted 10/06/03 3:20am

fairmoan

I think there is a point of agreement here, but not surprisingly it has been smothered by pride and stubborness and a touch of arrogance on both sides.

There's no denying that much of the public negativity toward Prince centres on his effeminate persona and falsetto singing. Of course it doesn't follow that Prince should simply drop the falsetto-- it's one of the special qualities of his music, and what's more he wouldn't be much of an artist if he simply bowed to public prejudices. But I think mrdespues has conceded the silliness of this part of his post.

To the other matter: I don't think there's any denying that the identification of falsetto singing with femininity is far more deeply entrenched in white culture than black culture. You just have to look at the long line of heterosexual males who have employed that register to great acclaim in the african-american soul tradition. As Supernova said there was no doubting the masculinity of a Marvin Gaye, etc. Supernova is not saying that only whites dislike falsetto for the reason that they are white. But it would be a bit naive to deny that people don't react differently to the sexual aspects of music on account of their cultural background.
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Reply #37 posted 10/06/03 3:28am

giotto

avatar

MRDREAMFACTORY said:

oh hell your from australia...you dont know jack shit about prince...sorry but stike to kylie minogue..ty...smile


If there's one thing that can be said in favour of the org it is this: by providing a platform for the opinions of the uneducated it keeps us in touch with the ignorance of the community.

.
"You don't frighten us, English pig dogs. Go and boil your bottoms, sons of a silly person."
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Reply #38 posted 10/06/03 3:31am

Supernova

avatar

mrdespues said:

Holy crap, you get more arrogant with every post, don't you?

Says the person who has to commence a post with:

"I am a singer myself (and I sing falsetto frequently), I have a band and I have been emersed in such culture since I was very young. I have sung and played a number of different instruments since I was 8 years old. I attended the Conservatorium of Music here in Sydney for 3 years..."~the fabulous mrdespues

You've got your head so far up your own bottom that you still haven't realised that it is not ME that has a problem with falsetto! I AM TALKING ABOUT OTHER PEOPLE! So stop dumping this shit on ME, please.

See, I'm not going that route to take you down to your belligerent, childish level by insulting you. You can stay down there if you wish, but also realize that if you do not have reading comprehension there is NO discussion to be had. That comprehension would have led you to realize what my responses were which were posted earlier in this thread means:

"You're still missing my point. I have no problem with the way he sings..."~the fabulous mrdespues

"OK, then the "you" I used is for those who generally have a dislike for it."~me

[pre:1:c5b3fdc414]"Yes, I understand you said it's not what you think, but what some others you know think. This does not mean anybody from any other culture cannot in this style."[/pre:1:c5b3fdc414]~me

So the rest of your post was quite pointless to anything said by me.

READING IS FUNDAMENTAL. READING COMPREHENSION IS VITAL. Don't get an attitude just because you're not coming to the table with it.

fairmoan said:

I think there is a point of agreement here, but not surprisingly it has been smothered by pride and stubborness and a touch of arrogance on both sides.

That has nothing to do with my part in it. Because when adults who feel the need to throw around their credentials as if to say, this is the reason I'm the one qualified to discuss this, I get very impatient when they blatantly reveal they are not reading, or can't comprehend what they're responding to - and have it manifest itself by copping a belligerent attitude while doing it.

Reading should be their most basic of skills if they're going to bring up musical credentials - so I threw it right back at him. Btw, those credentials aren't even essential to knowing what I'm talking about.

fairmoan said:

There's no denying that much of the public negativity toward Prince centres on his effeminate persona and falsetto singing. Of course it doesn't follow that Prince should simply drop the falsetto-- it's one of the special qualities of his music, and what's more he wouldn't be much of an artist if he simply bowed to public prejudices. But I think mrdespues has conceded the silliness of this part of his post.

To the other matter: I don't think there's any denying that the identification of falsetto singing with femininity is far more deeply entrenched in white culture than black culture. You just have to look at the long line of heterosexual males who have employed that register to great acclaim in the african-american soul tradition. As Supernova said there was no doubting the masculinity of a Marvin Gaye, etc. Supernova is not saying that only whites dislike falsetto for the reason that they are white. But it would be a bit naive to deny that people don't react differently to the sexual aspects of music on account of their cultural background.


My GOD! Someone who understands! Someone who read my posts! A 3 pointer at the buzzer. nod


`
[This message was edited Mon Oct 6 6:30:42 PDT 2003 by Supernova]
This post not for the wimp contingent. All whiny wusses avert your eyes.
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Reply #39 posted 10/06/03 3:33am

Supernova

avatar

MrBliss said:

Supernova said:

MrBliss said:

Supernova said:

MrBliss said:

Supernova said:

And if singing in falsetto in general bugs you, it's most likely because it's not part of your culture.




or you just don't like the sound of it

Yes, and those that don't, ON THIS SITE, tend not to come from the same culture that falsetto singing is common in.



you mean they're not irish, so they're not used to hearing bono do "lemon"?

Oh, Bliss. You're such a card. biggrin As if to point out an Irish guy singing falsetto proves some point. Don't forget to add Jeff Buckley and John Lennon to that list. Actually what it does prove is that Bono obviously has a much more varied taste in music than those who complain about falsetto singing. As did the others.


`
[This message was edited Sun Oct 5 14:33:42 PDT 2003 by Supernova]


i'm not trying to prove a point...i was joking... but the concept that if a person doesn't like falsetto it's because they're not black is so ridiculous it blows my mind

JeezUS. That's not what I said at all.
This post not for the wimp contingent. All whiny wusses avert your eyes.
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Reply #40 posted 10/06/03 4:54am

giotto

avatar

fairmoan said:


To the other matter: I don't think there's any denying that the identification of falsetto singing with femininity is far more deeply entrenched in white culture than black culture.


I think you make a really valid point here.

The issue of male singers adopting falsetto is one prevailing sticking point amongst white consumers, even in culturally diverse areas where sophistication and demographics already should have done away with such backward silliness.

A surprising number of male/female colleagues of mine, who really ought to know better, are also guilty of finding the sound of a heterosexual male singing in a high-register to be quite an unsettling experience. A few even come away muttering stuff about the singers' allegedly suspect masculinity.
If anything,it is yet another indication of how little African-American Soul tradition has filtered through to modern global tastes.

Still, it could be a great deal worse.I come from a Latin background where, were I to emulate the style of Curtis Mayfield, for example, I might as well be wearing a skirt.

.
"You don't frighten us, English pig dogs. Go and boil your bottoms, sons of a silly person."
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Reply #41 posted 10/06/03 10:11am

rudedog

mrdespues said:

.
For all his vast musical talent, WHY the hell does he spend so little on projects which could have been GREAT...not just "good".


Because, and I'm sure Prince would deny it himself, MONEY RULES ALL...period.
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Reply #42 posted 10/06/03 6:15pm

mrdespues

supernova said:

"OK, then the "you" I used is for those who generally have a dislike for it."~me

well, well, ms. FABULOUS, yourself. I did read and comprehend exactly what you said, and it didn't at all seem to be a general "you" which you were directing your comments at.

you've turned a pretty simple idea concerning what I thought might be possible to change in prince for the general public's better appreciation (no, again, not mine...it doesn't have to be people I KNOW either...these are just comments I've heard over time, you see) into something ridiculously misinterpreted and complex. your comments were without a doubt, definitely directed towards MY statements at the start of the thread. i'm afraid it's too late to turn the tables and start claiming I have a problem with comprehension when it is so obvious that's what prompted your own comments in the first place.

I won't be responding any further and I don't particularly care what else you have to say about how great I am. I already know that, thanks.

Now can we please get back to the topic, otherwise just let this thread die.

.
[This message was edited Mon Oct 6 18:16:28 PDT 2003 by mrdespues]
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Reply #43 posted 10/06/03 6:26pm

Supernova

avatar

mrdespues said:

you've turned a pretty simple idea concerning what I thought might be possible to change in prince for the general public's better appreciation (no, again, not mine...it doesn't have to be people I KNOW either...these are just comments I've heard over time, you see) into something ridiculously misinterpreted and complex.

Only complex to those who can't read. Other posters obviously knew what I was talking about, and further added to what I was saying. These posters didn't feel the need to be defensive either.

your comments were without a doubt, definitely directed towards MY statements at the start of the thread.


Say what?

"your comments were without a doubt, definitely directed towards MY statements at the start of the thread"

Quite obviously. That, you comprehended.

i'm afraid it's too late to turn the tables and start claiming I have a problem with comprehension when it is so obvious that's what prompted your own comments in the first place.

I never said my comments weren't toward you, "at the start of the thread." You seem extremely confused.

I won't be responding any further and I don't particularly care what else you have to say about how great I am.

As it should be. Childish belligerence to an easy concept to determine should be left at the Org door.
This post not for the wimp contingent. All whiny wusses avert your eyes.
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