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Reply #180 posted 07/23/20 6:34am

databank

avatar

mediumdry said:



databank said:


What you clearly don't understand is what you want to hear (you, me. anyone) is irrelevant.

.


We agree completely here. What is important is what the rightsholders want, but we can make suggestions. Unfortunately, what Prince wanted, or created, is ultimately only as relevant as the commercial value given to it. By which I mean that I think the rightsholders will have to do a market assessment and act accordingly, to keep a revenue stream large enough to keep preparing releases. :-/


.



databank said:


The version on The Family was finished (in its minimalist form) after Paul recorded his vocals. This version don't exist, never existed, never was intended to exist with Prince's vocals. This shouldn't even be a discussion really. I'm sorry, but it shouldn't.

.


The version exists... as in, all necessary parts are on a multitrack. Prince's voice is simply muted. (they wouldn't have been able to do the mixes they did otherwise) Our difference of opinion is simply if we should go for what Prince made the song into, ready for release, but with his vocals, or if we should only use existing stereo mixes. I am on the song side of things (that's his ultimate arrangement), you are on the historical (he stopped using his voice after St Paul did his vocals, so whatever was the last mix done before that is what should be used)


.


I understand your point and have sympathy for it, but I think my version is closer to Prince's art. Agree to disagree. biggrin


.



databank said:


Now releasing the multitracks like LGC, Who wouldn't want to have them of course, But I don't think it's ever gonna happen beyond the exceptional coup a la Space Oddity. Not for Prince nor any other artist. This would open the fate for so many reinterpretations ans so much vandalism that it would tarnish the artists' legacy, drawing their catalog in an ocean of bullshit amateurish remixes.

.


I haven't heard a lot of amateur remixes of Ben Folds album (just one I happened to have and thus thought of, there are others as well) and Prince was thinking about it, during the cd-rom "adventure" he released. (I think it was Interactive)


.


I think the "amateur remix" problem is a non-problem. Simply only listen to official releases if you want to hear the actual tracks. As to tarnishing a legacy... nothing will be as bad as what Prince has done himself, the unresolved rights issues, the re-interpretations and stuff played by others and "released" as vault material. I hope nothing like what happened to Hendrix's music will happen to Prince, but the risk of weird mixes has been out there since the start of the sampler and before. I don't see that becoming any different if stems are released officially.


.



databank said:


Now don't take me wrong, I respect you and I understand your suggestions come from a good place. But they're misled. . Sorry if there are typos btw I'm not home so typing on the smartphone neutral

.


Impressive that you typed that much on a phone. I hope there was noone around to hear you curse. razz


In a realistic perspective of course what the estate wants is the only truth. Sad, still, to see once again arts being enslaved by capitalism and consumerism. In a perfect world the vault should be curated by a musicology university or museum, not by people who are free to remix and even erase tapes according to what profit (or, later on, whatever lunacy crosses P's family's mind), dictates.
[Edited 7/23/20 6:37am]
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Reply #181 posted 07/23/20 9:52am

highcalonic

databank said:

In a realistic perspective of course what the estate wants is the only truth. Sad, still, to see once again arts being enslaved by capitalism and consumerism. In a perfect world the vault should be curated by a musicology university or museum, not by people who are free to remix and even erase tapes according to what profit (or, later on, whatever lunacy crosses P's family's mind), dictates. [Edited 7/23/20 6:37am]

Once again, fully agree with your point of you!

"You can skate around the issue if you like,
But who's gonna get you high in the middle of the night?"
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Reply #182 posted 07/23/20 12:14pm

databank

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I forgot but in reply to Mediumdry and fanmixes flooding the internet and people getting confused, I have no clue who Ben Folds is or if he's famous but I guess not as Prince, and most importantly he probably has a respectful fan base that doesn't dream of recreating its music to adjust it to their taste (the same cannot be said about some of the maniacs in the P community). All I can say is that every other month someone, a Prince fan mind you, comes on the Org and wonders about the Estate officially releasing Small Club and other bootlegs on the official YT channel, I was once scolded on the Org for saying that Boris' nonsensical The Dawn fanmade album was fake because it was "a genuine unreleased configuration", another fan was convinced that the estate had sold the masters to Madhouse to some small label and that it explained Madhouse albums being on streaming platforms some years ago, a fanmade Wasted Kisses extended is listed right now in another thread as a candidate for NPS SDE and so on. Even some fans are unable to distinguish fake from real, bootlegs from official. What to say about casual listeners, YouTube users who know nothing or little about the music they listen to? Some of us here are the kind who, since we're teens, dissecate credits and liner notes, but assuming everyone is like us is a grave mistake. Most people have no clue what they're listening to and if YouTube says "Jughead (Death To Tony Mix)" by Prince, they won't bother and they'll just naturally assume they're listening to a genuine Prince song.
Releasing the stems definitely threatens the legacy IMHO. But anyway as I said our opinion on this particular topic does not matter because it ain't gonna happen.
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Reply #183 posted 07/23/20 12:16pm

lustmealways

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databank said:

I have no clue who Ben Folds is

woah

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Reply #184 posted 07/23/20 12:37pm

RJOrion

lustmealways said:



databank said:


I have no clue who Ben Folds is

woah



co-woah
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Reply #185 posted 07/23/20 1:08pm

databank

avatar

RJOrion said:

lustmealways said:



databank said:


I have no clue who Ben Folds is

woah



co-woah

IDK what to say. I have a near 6000 albums collection so obviously I'm not musically illiterate. It may be the dude isn't very famous in Europe (some of the best selling acts in the US are virtually unknown in Europe, it came as a shock to me when I learned of certain American icons that never got the slightest radio airplay in France), or it might be that he's doing stuff in a genre I don't care much about (my knowledge of certain branches of rock and pop-rock, or whole genres such as metal, folk, country and blues for example is quite limited, not to mention commercial music from the last 20 years of which I know virtually nothing of, I didn't know who Ed Sheeran was before I saw the movie "Yesterday"). There's simply too much music for anyone to know everything.
[Edited 7/23/20 13:09pm]
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Reply #186 posted 07/23/20 1:34pm

LoveGalore

databank said:

RJOrion said:



co-woah

IDK what to say. I have a near 6000 albums collection so obviously I'm not musically illiterate. It may be the dude isn't very famous in Europe (some of the best selling acts in the US are virtually unknown in Europe, it came as a shock to me when I learned of certain American icons that never got the slightest radio airplay in France), or it might be that he's doing stuff in a genre I don't care much about (my knowledge of certain branches of rock and pop-rock, or whole genres such as metal, folk, country and blues for example is quite limited, not to mention commercial music from the last 20 years of which I know virtually nothing of, I didn't know who Ed Sheeran was before I saw the movie "Yesterday"). There's simply too much music for anyone to know everything.
[Edited 7/23/20 13:09pm]



Ben Folds, from Ben Folds Five, is a well known rock musician from the 90s. He probably only really had one mega hit and that was "Brick" - "sheeeee's a brick and I'm falling slowly" or some shit.
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Reply #187 posted 07/23/20 2:16pm

RJOrion

databank said:

RJOrion said:



co-woah

IDK what to say. I have a near 6000 albums collection so obviously I'm not musically illiterate. It may be the dude isn't very famous in Europe (some of the best selling acts in the US are virtually unknown in Europe, it came as a shock to me when I learned of certain American icons that never got the slightest radio airplay in France), or it might be that he's doing stuff in a genre I don't care much about (my knowledge of certain branches of rock and pop-rock, or whole genres such as metal, folk, country and blues for example is quite limited, not to mention commercial music from the last 20 years of which I know virtually nothing of, I didn't know who Ed Sheeran was before I saw the movie "Yesterday"). There's simply too much music for anyone to know everything.
[Edited 7/23/20 13:09pm]


nah, youre good...i was just shocked because true to your account name, youre a solid resource for information...and i was suprised that someone as well versed as you had never heard of The Ben Folds Five...they werent famous by any means, but they had a nice little run in the late 90s...i remember a joint named "Brick", that got steady rotation...sounds (and looks) a little like the great Duncan Sheik, but not nearly as deep, poetic and soulful...his music is not bad at all
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Reply #188 posted 07/23/20 2:25pm

Farfunknugin

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Love me some Ben Folds, especially this one - https://en.wikipedia.org/...ld_Messner
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Reply #189 posted 07/23/20 3:22pm

thefrog

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Ben Folds Five aside (I certainly was aware of them/him back in the day, but not much more than that) this version of ICNTTPOYM is fascinating and a curiosity. Much like Piano & a Microphone '83. And, much like that release, when the dust settles it won't get a terrific amount of airplay from me, at least. Witness will, on the other hand. Horses for courses, But I'm glad its out there and it's interesting, for sure.
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Reply #190 posted 07/23/20 5:27pm

databank

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Ok I just checked that "Brick" song and it doesn't ring a bell at all. I'm not sure, by 1997 I was kind of already distancing myself from top 50 music so it's possible it was a hit in France and I missed it, but on the other hand I was still kind of up to date with what was hip in rock through friends and the very elitist radio channel I was listening to at the time so it might be it didn't raise much interest in France. Either way it sounds like the kind of stuff I would have totally disdained at the time, and I was into some alt. rock and brit pop to a certain extent, but this really I know my reaction would have been Mayte can sing better than these guys and it sounds like an outdated copy of these alt. rock ballads that were popular on MTV Europe in 1993 so keep that shit away from me. Not to say I'd react to it that way now if I cared to really listen to it, I've learned to be more respectful towards musicians but at the time I totally wouldn't have paid any attention to it, I was into trip-hop and sophisticated shit like that lol
[Edited 7/23/20 17:27pm]
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Reply #191 posted 07/23/20 5:32pm

databank

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Ok my GF who's German (and younger so more exposed to hits at the time) says she knows the song and Ben Folds and she also says it's a beautiful song, so I'm gonna trust her on this biggrin
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Reply #192 posted 07/23/20 5:39pm

databank

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Ok now she says she never heard it at the time, she discovered the song and artist through a friend only a few years ago, but she maintains it's solid shit. I'll listen to it again more carefully later wink
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Reply #193 posted 07/24/20 3:19am

mediumdry

Ben Folds and Ben Folds Five has, I think, outsold Prince in the late 90s and early 2000s. Still, that's not too important. Brick isn't really a good indication of what he/they are. They play "alternative rock", influenced by jazz, folk and a range of other stuff. I love them because of their sense of humor (during a live show someone yelled "rock this bitch", so they made up a song on the spot with that title and it became a thing, with them playing different versions of "the song" regularly. Even improvising with a symphony orchestra) (as a sidenote, Ben Folds was on Stephen Colbert's Late Show last night, fairly mainstream)

.

Anyway, there are a number of artists that have released stems (sometime multitracks even) and there are a lot going around the internet from different artists that aren't as official. It's definitely a niche thing.

.

The Prince world has never been very open with things (imagine if Prince would have been willing to do something like McCartney's Chaos and Creation!) so I won't hold my breath. I do hope that over time things will become clearer and there will be a plan for the future that will work for the estate, fans and conservationists alike.

Paisley Park is in your heart - Love Is Here!
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Reply #194 posted 07/24/20 4:34am

jaawwnn

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Ben Folds Five/Ben Folds were never that big in the UK/Ireland, or I believe the rest of Europe. They never had a big hit that broke them through in the way Brick did in the USA, but certainly they got a fair few promotional pushes and got in magazines/the occasional TV show. I was a fan of BFF as a teenager, there was a good amount of crossover with what i'd call the Weezer or eels-end of 90s alt-rock, but not much in terms of chart action and it would have been very easy to never come across them for sure. I'd still play the The Unauthorized Biography album a fair bit.


[Edited 7/24/20 4:37am]

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Reply #195 posted 07/24/20 5:18am

LoveGalore

mediumdry said:

Ben Folds and Ben Folds Five has, I think, outsold Prince in the late 90s and early 2000s. Still, that's not too important. Brick isn't really a good indication of what he/they are. They play "alternative rock", influenced by jazz, folk and a range of other stuff. I love them because of their sense of humor (during a live show someone yelled "rock this bitch", so they made up a song on the spot with that title and it became a thing, with them playing different versions of "the song" regularly. Even improvising with a symphony orchestra) (as a sidenote, Ben Folds was on Stephen Colbert's Late Show last night, fairly mainstream)


.


Anyway, there are a number of artists that have released stems (sometime multitracks even) and there are a lot going around the internet from different artists that aren't as official. It's definitely a niche thing.


.


The Prince world has never been very open with things (imagine if Prince would have been willing to do something like McCartney's Chaos and Creation!) so I won't hold my breath. I do hope that over time things will become clearer and there will be a plan for the future that will work for the estate, fans and conservationists alike.




To be fair, Prince sold approximately 8 copies of his albums from Come to Rainbow Children so a girl scout cookie could've outsold him.
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Reply #196 posted 07/24/20 6:25am

databank

avatar

LoveGalore said:

mediumdry said:

Ben Folds and Ben Folds Five has, I think, outsold Prince in the late 90s and early 2000s. Still, that's not too important. Brick isn't really a good indication of what he/they are. They play "alternative rock", influenced by jazz, folk and a range of other stuff. I love them because of their sense of humor (during a live show someone yelled "rock this bitch", so they made up a song on the spot with that title and it became a thing, with them playing different versions of "the song" regularly. Even improvising with a symphony orchestra) (as a sidenote, Ben Folds was on Stephen Colbert's Late Show last night, fairly mainstream)


.


Anyway, there are a number of artists that have released stems (sometime multitracks even) and there are a lot going around the internet from different artists that aren't as official. It's definitely a niche thing.


.


The Prince world has never been very open with things (imagine if Prince would have been willing to do something like McCartney's Chaos and Creation!) so I won't hold my breath. I do hope that over time things will become clearer and there will be a plan for the future that will work for the estate, fans and conservationists alike.




To be fair, Prince sold approximately 8 copies of his albums from Come to Rainbow Children so a girl scout cookie could've outsold him.

To be fair, Prince still sold more copies of these records than the vast majority of the artists I own albums of ever sold.
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Reply #197 posted 07/24/20 6:38am

Vannormal

avatar

RJOrion said:

lustmealways said:

woah

co-woah

double triple co-woah

"...no matter what, all will be fine, always."
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Reply #198 posted 07/24/20 6:49am

Vannormal

avatar

databank said:

RJOrion said:
co-woah
IDK what to say. I have a near 6000 albums collection so obviously I'm not musically illiterate. It may be the dude isn't very famous in Europe (some of the best selling acts in the US are virtually unknown in Europe, it came as a shock to me when I learned of certain American icons that never got the slightest radio airplay in France), or it might be that he's doing stuff in a genre I don't care much about (my knowledge of certain branches of rock and pop-rock, or whole genres such as metal, folk, country and blues for example is quite limited, not to mention commercial music from the last 20 years of which I know virtually nothing of, I didn't know who Ed Sheeran was before I saw the movie "Yesterday"). There's simply too much music for anyone to know everything. [Edited 7/23/20 13:09pm]

-

Ben Folds Five was huge in Europe.

-

But explanation also goes for me at some point.

Pop from the last 20 years, not much interested. But i hear now and then some on our radiostation, and skip it. biggrin

-

Ah but you're from France. smile

That explains it a bit.

French radio INSISTS/insited that every official radio station plays at least 40% french music only.

“Un peu chauvin,” isn't it. wink

Try to listen to any radio station while driving the car through France, or at any location

and find me 1 station where they are NOT talking, but playing 'music', any music. wink

So there's very little time for music left.

-

Then on the other hand I believe that Ben Folds Five might be too 'American' or too oscure pop-rock-ish. I live in Beligum, my Flemish friends mostly know about Ben Folds Five, while my french speaking friends basically never heard of 'm. And that goes in both directions.

I guess it's the same in the US with the latino pop and rock culture.

By the way, Is there a Latino rock culture?

Like I've never heard of even... now hear me talking. wink

-

[Edited 7/24/20 6:50am]

"...no matter what, all will be fine, always."
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Reply #199 posted 07/24/20 7:10am

databank

avatar

Vannormal said:



databank said:


RJOrion said:
co-woah

IDK what to say. I have a near 6000 albums collection so obviously I'm not musically illiterate. It may be the dude isn't very famous in Europe (some of the best selling acts in the US are virtually unknown in Europe, it came as a shock to me when I learned of certain American icons that never got the slightest radio airplay in France), or it might be that he's doing stuff in a genre I don't care much about (my knowledge of certain branches of rock and pop-rock, or whole genres such as metal, folk, country and blues for example is quite limited, not to mention commercial music from the last 20 years of which I know virtually nothing of, I didn't know who Ed Sheeran was before I saw the movie "Yesterday"). There's simply too much music for anyone to know everything. [Edited 7/23/20 13:09pm]

-


Ben Folds Five was huge in Europe.


-


But explanation also goes for me at some point.


Pop from the last 20 years, not much interested. But i hear now and then some on our radiostation, and skip it. biggrin


-


Ah but you're from France. smile


That explains it a bit.


French radio INSISTS/insited that every official radio station plays at least 40% french music only.


“Un peu chauvin,” isn't it. wink


Try to listen to any radio station while driving the car through France, or at any location


and find me 1 station where they are NOT talking, but playing 'music', any music. wink


So there's very little time for music left.


-


Then on the other hand I believe that Ben Folds Five might be too 'American' or too oscure pop-rock-ish. I live in Beligum, my Flemish friends mostly know about Ben Folds Five, while my french speaking friends basically never heard of 'm. And that goes in both directions.


I guess it's the same in the US with the latino pop and rock culture.


By the way, Is there a Latino rock culture?


Like I've never heard of even... now hear me talking. wink


-


[Edited 7/24/20 6:50am]


In fact the 40% thing is a law passed by the French government in the mid 90s, for the purpose of cultural protectionism. Radio stations and TV channels were furious about it because English music was of course way more popular, and it ruined radio for most young people at the time. So yeah, it sucks. The minister who promoted this dumb law was called Jacques Toubon and since "tout bon" means "all good", people made fun of him by calling the Toubon law (loi Toubon) "la loi all good".
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Reply #200 posted 07/24/20 7:23am

SanMartin

avatar

Vannormal said:

-

French radio INSISTS/insited that every official radio station plays at least 40% french music only.

“Un peu chauvin,” isn't it. wink

By the way, Is there a Latino rock culture?

-

[Edited 7/24/20 6:50am]

Personally I wish they'd do something like that French 40% rule here in Spain, where I live. Reggaeton's really popular at the moment, so Spanish-language music is "in", but even so the mainstream radio stations play mostly music in English, which is absurd. It has nothing to do with the quality of the music and everything to do with money.


And yes, there's plenty of rock in Latin America. I'll never get tired of recommending Charly García (Argentina), whose output in terms of both quantity and quality is easily comparable to, say, Bowie's.


Also, so that this isn't toooo off topic, I will add that whilst I have nothing to contribute to the debate about Frankenstein mixes and whatnot, it is nonetheless very interesting.

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Reply #201 posted 07/24/20 9:27am

SantanaMaitrey
a

Vannormal said:



RJOrion said:


lustmealways said:


woah



co-woah

double triple co-woah


And an extra slice of woah for the weekend!
O tempora! O mores!
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Reply #202 posted 07/24/20 9:35am

SantanaMaitrey
a

Want some Latin American rock? Try this. I saw these guys perform in Sucre, Bolivia some years ago.
https://youtu.be/-brqPXipkxM
[Edited 7/24/20 9:42am]
O tempora! O mores!
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Reply #203 posted 07/24/20 9:39am

databank

avatar

SanMartin said:



Vannormal said:



-


French radio INSISTS/insited that every official radio station plays at least 40% french music only.


“Un peu chauvin,” isn't it. wink



By the way, Is there a Latino rock culture?



-


[Edited 7/24/20 6:50am]



Personally I wish they'd do something like that French 40% rule here in Spain, where I live. Reggaeton's really popular at the moment, so Spanish-language music is "in", but even so the mainstream radio stations play mostly music in English, which is absurd. It has nothing to do with the quality of the music and everything to do with money.



And yes, there's plenty of rock in Latin America. I'll never get tired of recommending Charly García (Argentina), whose output in terms of both quantity and quality is easily comparable to, say, Bowie's.



Also, so that this isn't toooo off topic, I will add that whilst I have nothing to contribute to the debate about Frankenstein mixes and whatnot, it is nonetheless very interesting.


Ha! I'm in Cordoba right now smile
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Reply #204 posted 07/24/20 11:35pm

BartVanHemelen

avatar

.

[Edited 7/24/20 23:56pm]

© Bart Van Hemelen
This posting is provided AS IS with no warranties, and confers no rights.
It is not authorized by Prince or the NPG Music Club. You assume all risk for
your use. All rights reserved.
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Reply #205 posted 07/25/20 12:43am

databank

avatar

BartVanHemelen said:

.

[Edited 7/24/20 23:56pm]


I agree nod
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Reply #206 posted 07/25/20 10:26pm

AvocadosMax

Returning to this...

If this version had the godly guitar solo then it would have beat the SOTT version....

But it comes so close... I love Prince when he sounds so raw... something about ‘79-‘81 with those punk-ish, new wavey rockers.... he owned the rock n roll attitude... no one could do it like Prince...
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Reply #207 posted 07/26/20 4:52pm

slyjackson

databank said:

BartVanHemelen said:

.

[Edited 7/24/20 23:56pm]

I agree nod

[Snip - luv4u]

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Reply #208 posted 07/26/20 5:24pm

databank

avatar

slyjackson said:



databank said:


BartVanHemelen said:

.


[Edited 7/24/20 23:56pm]



I agree nod

[Snip - luv4u]


I don't know what was snipped but I just replied "I agree" in reply to Bart's self censored empty snip because I thought it was funny but I have no clue what he said before deleting his post lol
[Edited 7/26/20 17:25pm]
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Reply #209 posted 07/27/20 2:47am

Prog5000

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Sounds great. I miss the guitar solo and overall prefer the album version but I can happily listen to this.
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Forums > Prince: Music and More > OUT NOW: "I Could Never Take The Place Of Your Man" (1979 Demo)