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Thread started 11/12/19 12:30pm

LoveGalore

Questions about two instrumental tracks.

1) What's the real title of "Climax"? Surprising to me that this is not listed on Prince Vault so I assume it is either a fake or it goes by another name.

2) Is the instrumental "Lust U Always" actually "Lust U Always"? This would constitute a pretty dramatic rearrangement. Another thing not listed on PV.
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Reply #1 posted 11/12/19 12:44pm

TheSilentMikey

LoveGalore said:

1) What's the real title of "Climax"? Surprising to me that this is not listed on Prince Vault so I assume it is either a fake or it goes by another name. 2) Is the instrumental "Lust U Always" actually "Lust U Always"? This would constitute a pretty dramatic rearrangement. Another thing not listed on PV.

1. The real title is indeed "Climax". It's among one of the titles that aren't registered on PrinceVault.

2. This instrumental is actually titled "Divinity". Aside from a keyboard line that sounds like "Lust U Always", the similarities ends there. Another title that isn't registered on PrinceVault.

"Don't need no Reefer. Don't need Cocaine. Purple Music does the same to my brain."
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Reply #2 posted 11/12/19 12:54pm

LoveGalore

TheSilentMikey said:

LoveGalore said:

1) What's the real title of "Climax"? Surprising to me that this is not listed on Prince Vault so I assume it is either a fake or it goes by another name. 2) Is the instrumental "Lust U Always" actually "Lust U Always"? This would constitute a pretty dramatic rearrangement. Another thing not listed on PV.

1. The real title is indeed "Climax". It's among one of the titles that aren't registered on PrinceVault.

2. This instrumental is actually titled "Divinity". Aside from a keyboard line that sounds like "Lust U Always", the similarities ends there. Another title that isn't registered on PrinceVault.

Thank you!

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Reply #3 posted 11/12/19 12:56pm

TheSilentMikey

LoveGalore said:

TheSilentMikey said:

1. The real title is indeed "Climax". It's among one of the titles that aren't registered on PrinceVault.

2. This instrumental is actually titled "Divinity". Aside from a keyboard line that sounds like "Lust U Always", the similarities ends there. Another title that isn't registered on PrinceVault.

Thank you!

BTW, you can also see the 1/2" mixdown tape of "Divinity" on the Vault pictures.

"Don't need no Reefer. Don't need Cocaine. Purple Music does the same to my brain."
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Reply #4 posted 11/12/19 1:02pm

LoveGalore

TheSilentMikey said:

LoveGalore said:

Thank you!

BTW, you can also see the 1/2" mixdown tape of "Divinity" on the Vault pictures.

Do we know when it was recorded? Off the top of my head, I don't remember the title from Duane Tudahl's book (though I don't doubt its existence).

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Reply #5 posted 11/12/19 2:26pm

TheSilentMikey

LoveGalore said:

TheSilentMikey said:

BTW, you can also see the 1/2" mixdown tape of "Divinity" on the Vault pictures.

Do we know when it was recorded? Off the top of my head, I don't remember the title from Duane Tudahl's book (though I don't doubt its existence).

We don't really know, but there's two possibilites. It was recorded either during the summer of '82 or the summer of '83.

"Don't need no Reefer. Don't need Cocaine. Purple Music does the same to my brain."
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Reply #6 posted 11/12/19 3:16pm

LoveGalore

TheSilentMikey said:

LoveGalore said:

Do we know when it was recorded? Off the top of my head, I don't remember the title from Duane Tudahl's book (though I don't doubt its existence).

We don't really know, but there's two possibilites. It was recorded either during the summer of '82 or the summer of '83.

Cool, yeah, I could see it going either way. It does have the 1999 vibe to it, but it also vaguely reminds me of the updated version of Possessed as well. Great info, thank you!

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Reply #7 posted 11/12/19 7:48pm

imprimis

This seems a far too sophisticated production-wise to be credibly from 1982.

.

Some of the lead synths sound digital (DX7).

.

I would date it Late '83 (at earliest) to Feb/March 1984, most likely the latter.

.

It sounds very much like, and may have a similar intended purpose, to the material he was working on at the time for potential use in the film, including the re-recording of 'Possessed', 'Traffic Jam', and also 'When Doves Cry'.

.

It appears to borrow a few ideas from 'Lust U Always', the extended sections of 'Computer Blue', some riffs from misc. Revolution 1983/1984 rehearsal jams, and the additions to 'Jungle Love' between the 1983 basic tracking and its final release.

.

There may be a vocal track, but I suspect it is not a well developed polished take, as was also the case with the March 1984 'Possessed'. It seems structured around a possibly muted vocal.

.

'Divinity' may well be its formal name, although we should not rely on one or two isolated photographs from the Vault with no meaningful information about the contents/date of the box, for such a generic and Princely song title.

.

In the remote, speculative possibility that this is 'Lust U Always #2', this may be what the 1987 'Camille' Robert Palmer version is based on.

.

In my way of thinking, this song, and 'Possessed #2', would work best with the 'Your Purple Fox' spoken lyric style of the 'All Day, All Night', and not indulgent falsetto screeching.

.

[Edited 11/12/19 20:24pm]

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Reply #8 posted 11/12/19 9:02pm

LoveGalore

imprimis said:

This seems a far too sophisticated production-wise to be credibly from 1982.

.

Some of the lead synths sound digital (DX7).

.

I would date it Late '83 (at earliest) to Feb/March 1984, most likely the latter.

.

It sounds very much like, and may have a similar intended purpose, to the material he was working on at the time for potential use in the film, including the re-recording of 'Possessed', 'Traffic Jam', and also 'When Doves Cry'.

.

It appears to borrow a few ideas from 'Lust U Always', the extended sections of 'Computer Blue', some riffs from misc. Revolution 1983/1984 rehearsal jams, and the additions to 'Jungle Love' between the 1983 basic tracking and its final release.

.

There may be a vocal track, but I suspect it is not a well developed polished take, as was also the case with the March 1984 'Possessed'. It seems structured around a possibly muted vocal.

.

'Divinity' may well be its formal name, although we should not rely on one or two isolated photographs from the Vault with no meaningful information about the contents/date of the box, for such a generic and Princely song title.

.

In the remote, speculative possibility that this is 'Lust U Always #2', this may be what the 1987 'Camille' Robert Palmer version is based on.

.

In my way of thinking, this song, and 'Possessed #2', would work best with the 'Your Purple Fox' spoken lyric style of the 'All Day, All Night', and not indulgent falsetto screeching.

.

[Edited 11/12/19 20:24pm]

I can definitely hear the similarity to Possessed 2. I wish we could be 100% certain what the damn title is at least. I am surprised this song didn't come up in Duane's research.

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Reply #9 posted 11/12/19 10:18pm

PurpleMusic768
9

avatar

"Climax" (and the accompanying bass track) - Recorded June-Sept. 1983
"Divinity" - Recorded in 1984, likely Feb.-June...
usually known as "Leaped7689"
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Reply #10 posted 11/13/19 12:17am

databank

avatar

LoveGalore said:

1) What's the real title of "Climax"? Surprising to me that this is not listed on Prince Vault so I assume it is either a fake or it goes by another name.

2) Is the instrumental "Lust U Always" actually "Lust U Always"? This would constitute a pretty dramatic rearrangement. Another thing not listed on PV.

Climax is a bootleggers made title. The real title, if there's any, isn't known, which is probably why it doesn't have an entry on Pvault (several other untitled instrumentals are also missing).
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Reply #11 posted 11/13/19 1:53am

LoveGalore

databank said:

LoveGalore said:

1) What's the real title of "Climax"? Surprising to me that this is not listed on Prince Vault so I assume it is either a fake or it goes by another name.

2) Is the instrumental "Lust U Always" actually "Lust U Always"? This would constitute a pretty dramatic rearrangement. Another thing not listed on PV.

Climax is a bootleggers made title. The real title, if there's any, isn't known, which is probably why it doesn't have an entry on Pvault (several other untitled instrumentals are also missing).


Now I'm even more confused. At least it's been made clear by this thread that these two tracks desperately need some research done into them.
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Reply #12 posted 11/13/19 2:33am

databank

avatar

LoveGalore said:

databank said:


Climax is a bootleggers made title. The real title, if there's any, isn't known, which is probably why it doesn't have an entry on Pvault (several other untitled instrumentals are also missing).


Now I'm even more confused. At least it's been made clear by this thread that these two tracks desperately need some research done into them.

There's little doubt about that. Uptown and the Vault book always filed it as an untitled Instrumental. It was randomly titled Climax or Jammin' Till The Dawn on bootlegs IIRC.
Edit: I first had it with the Jamming title on that boot. The Discogs entry confirms my info if you look below tracklist: https://www.discogs.com/P...ase/484825
[Edited 11/13/19 2:41am]
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Reply #13 posted 11/13/19 3:23am

LoveGalore

databank said:

LoveGalore said:
Now I'm even more confused. At least it's been made clear by this thread that these two tracks desperately need some research done into them.
There's little doubt about that. Uptown and the Vault book always filed it as an untitled Instrumental. It was randomly titled Climax or Jammin' Till The Dawn on bootlegs IIRC. Edit: I first had it with the Jamming title on that boot. The Discogs entry confirms my info if you look below tracklist: https://www.discogs.com/P...ase/484825 [Edited 11/13/19 2:41am]

I'm curious how the title wouldn't be listed on the original tapes it was taken from. I wonder who the source was for this particular leak? Probably lost to time/unknown at this point. Still very surprised neither of these songs are included in Duane's book - surely he ran across the documentation for them at some point. How could he not when both Sunset Sound and WB sent him their call sheets and work orders, etc.

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Reply #14 posted 11/13/19 3:40am

databank

avatar

LoveGalore said:



databank said:


LoveGalore said:
Now I'm even more confused. At least it's been made clear by this thread that these two tracks desperately need some research done into them.

There's little doubt about that. Uptown and the Vault book always filed it as an untitled Instrumental. It was randomly titled Climax or Jammin' Till The Dawn on bootlegs IIRC. Edit: I first had it with the Jamming title on that boot. The Discogs entry confirms my info if you look below tracklist: https://www.discogs.com/P...ase/484825 [Edited 11/13/19 2:41am]

I'm curious how the title wouldn't be listed on the original tapes it was taken from. I wonder who the source was for this particular leak? Probably lost to time/unknown at this point. Still very surprised neither of these songs are included in Duane's book - surely he ran across the documentation for them at some point. How could he not when both Sunset Sound and WB sent him their call sheets and work orders, etc.


It might be because Duane figured out they were from 1982. I can't imagine him overlooking classic bootlegs like these ones.
[Edited 11/13/19 3:41am]
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Reply #15 posted 11/13/19 4:40am

LoveGalore

databank said:

LoveGalore said:



databank said:


LoveGalore said:
Now I'm even more confused. At least it's been made clear by this thread that these two tracks desperately need some research done into them.

There's little doubt about that. Uptown and the Vault book always filed it as an untitled Instrumental. It was randomly titled Climax or Jammin' Till The Dawn on bootlegs IIRC. Edit: I first had it with the Jamming title on that boot. The Discogs entry confirms my info if you look below tracklist: https://www.discogs.com/P...ase/484825 [Edited 11/13/19 2:41am]

I'm curious how the title wouldn't be listed on the original tapes it was taken from. I wonder who the source was for this particular leak? Probably lost to time/unknown at this point. Still very surprised neither of these songs are included in Duane's book - surely he ran across the documentation for them at some point. How could he not when both Sunset Sound and WB sent him their call sheets and work orders, etc.


It might be because Duane figured out they were from 1982. I can't imagine him overlooking classic bootlegs like these ones.
[Edited 11/13/19 3:41am]



Quite possible! I could see "Climax" being from 1982 certainly. The percussion reminds me of DMSR and the bass certainly calls back to songs like If A Girl Answers, etc.

It's "Divinity/LUA 2" that seems ill fitting for 1982. It has that synth sound that is very reminiscent of Possessed 2 and Traffic Jam - though I don't know enough about specific synths to say one way or another.
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Reply #16 posted 11/13/19 5:32am

imprimis

I don't believe any competent ear-reading could date 'Divinity' at 1982. No need to see the studio log.

.

From the addenda to Duane's book, we might take that as a signal that this period (~October 1983-May 1984) is at least somewhat opaque and incomplete in its record. Early 1983 is even murkier.

.

[Edited 11/13/19 5:36am]

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Reply #17 posted 11/13/19 6:10am

imprimis

I'm deviating slightly from the original topic, but on one of the extended sets of rehearsals for the First Avenue '83 show, he plays what appears to be a brief rendition on the piano of [what would become] the 'Paisley Park' (March 1984) instrumental.

.

I haven't seen this discussed or mentioned on this forum.

.

[Edited 11/13/19 8:10am]

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Reply #18 posted 11/13/19 6:23am

LoveGalore

imprimis said:

I don't believe any competent ear-reading could date 'Divinity' at 1982. No need to see the studio log.


.


From the addenda to Duane's book, we might take that as a signal that this period (~October 1983-May 1984) is at least somewhat opaque and incomplete in its record. Early 1983 is even murkier.


.

[Edited 11/13/19 5:36am]



I am inclined to agree about that dating. It does very much feel like early 84 to me. But even with that addendum, it seems like early 84 (specifically the Sheila E, Pop Life, Apollonia work) feels pretty well documented. Or at least, there is a lot documented there already from a layperson's perspective.

It really intrigues me because I don't see this song having a vocal track at all and I'm betting it stayed instrumental. There's so much going on, especially that repeated motif, that there would not be much room for vocals. Similar to Traffic Jam but even more fleshed out. Compare this to Possessed 2 which definitely sounds like it has enough empty space for an intended vocal (obviously it has one, but we - rather, most of us - didn't necessarily know that until PR deluxe).
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Reply #19 posted 11/13/19 6:23am

databank

avatar

imprimis said:

I don't believe any competent ear-reading could date 'Divinity' at 1982. No need to see the studio log.


.


From the addenda to Duane's book, we might take that as a signal that this period (~October 1983-May 1984) is at least somewhat opaque and incomplete in its record. Early 1983 is even murkier.


.

[Edited 11/13/19 5:36am]


I don't believe any competent ear can compete with serious scientific research. Let's wait for Duane's 1981-1982 book if it ever comes out. If it's not there either then ears is all we got left...
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Reply #20 posted 11/13/19 6:40am

imprimis

databank said:

imprimis said:

I don't believe any competent ear-reading could date 'Divinity' at 1982. No need to see the studio log.

.

From the addenda to Duane's book, we might take that as a signal that this period (~October 1983-May 1984) is at least somewhat opaque and incomplete in its record. Early 1983 is even murkier.

.

[Edited 11/13/19 5:36am]

I don't believe any competent ear can compete with serious scientific research. Let's wait for Duane's 1981-1982 book if it ever comes out. If it's not there either then ears is all we got left...

.

I don't legitimately trust that this is the case (since we have no confirmation that this is a 'Lust U Always #2'), but to play devil's advocate, it could just as well be absent from the 1983-84 documentation due to being pulled and used as a reworked master for Robert Palmer ca. 1987.

.

[Edited 11/13/19 6:43am]

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Reply #21 posted 11/13/19 7:12am

LoveGalore

imprimis said:



databank said:


imprimis said:

I don't believe any competent ear-reading could date 'Divinity' at 1982. No need to see the studio log.


.


From the addenda to Duane's book, we might take that as a signal that this period (~October 1983-May 1984) is at least somewhat opaque and incomplete in its record. Early 1983 is even murkier.


.


[Edited 11/13/19 5:36am]



I don't believe any competent ear can compete with serious scientific research. Let's wait for Duane's 1981-1982 book if it ever comes out. If it's not there either then ears is all we got left...

.


I don't legitimately trust that this is the case (since we have no confirmation that this is a 'Lust U Always #2'), but to play devil's advocate, it could just as well be absent from the 1983-84 documentation due to being pulled and used as a reworked master for Robert Palmer ca. 1987.


.


[Edited 11/13/19 6:43am]



Well by that logic, we wouldn't have had the documents/info for We Can Fuck, right? Because it was pulled and worked on.

You're right that there is no real confirmation what this song is and it could have abso nothing to do with LUA. For what it is worth, I don't think this song was the song he was referring to when he suggested it for release on Crystal Ball 2. The definitive vocal version is very much a ready for release type track.

Is there confirmation that LUA was rerecorded for Palmer and that he wasn't just submitted the 82 version? I have no idea.
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Reply #22 posted 11/13/19 7:21am

imprimis

LoveGalore said:

imprimis said:

.

I don't legitimately trust that this is the case (since we have no confirmation that this is a 'Lust U Always #2'), but to play devil's advocate, it could just as well be absent from the 1983-84 documentation due to being pulled and used as a reworked master for Robert Palmer ca. 1987.

.

[Edited 11/13/19 6:43am]

Well by that logic, we wouldn't have had the documents/info for We Can Fuck, right? Because it was pulled and worked on. You're right that there is no real confirmation what this song is and it could have abso nothing to do with LUA. For what it is worth, I don't think this song was the song he was referring to when he suggested it for release on Crystal Ball 2. The definitive vocal version is very much a ready for release type track. Is there confirmation that LUA was rerecorded for Palmer and that he wasn't just submitted the 82 version? I have no idea.

.

It is half-baked logic, but see the vault curator's recent comment and speculation on why no 1982 'Raspberry Beret' has been located.

.

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Reply #23 posted 11/13/19 7:22am

imprimis

LoveGalore said:

imprimis said:

.

I don't legitimately trust that this is the case (since we have no confirmation that this is a 'Lust U Always #2'), but to play devil's advocate, it could just as well be absent from the 1983-84 documentation due to being pulled and used as a reworked master for Robert Palmer ca. 1987.

.

[Edited 11/13/19 6:43am]

Well by that logic, we wouldn't have had the documents/info for We Can Fuck, right? Because it was pulled and worked on. You're right that there is no real confirmation what this song is and it could have abso nothing to do with LUA. For what it is worth, I don't think this song was the song he was referring to when he suggested it for release on Crystal Ball 2. The definitive vocal version is very much a ready for release type track. Is there confirmation that LUA was rerecorded for Palmer and that he wasn't just submitted the 82 version? I have no idea.

.

This has not been thoroughly probed.

.

Personally, I can't imagine him sending the 1982 version (cute, but seems sub-release grade material, more than other outtakes could be characterized as; and this is for Palmer, not one of his starlets; and also very dated for an album that wouldn't be released until 1988 with the other tracks boasting that 'Power Station' sound).

.

What we know as the '1982 version', that is.

.

I don't believe much could be done to dust off and dress up that recording.

.

But it isn't strictly impossible. In any case, RP was unimpressed and didn't shy away from letting the press know.

.

The tape arrived in the mail, apparently, unsolicited, as a bit of an implied 'thank you' gesture for ATL->UGTL.

.

He didn't propose to re-record the track with his own musicians (unlike Kenny Rogers), but apparently did record a vocal (as a courtesy).

.

[Edited 11/13/19 8:16am]

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Reply #24 posted 11/13/19 8:16am

PurpleMusic768
9

avatar

The titles are indeed "Climax" and "Divinity" ("Climax" even being confirmed by Duane... And start ignoring PVault... They've taken off so much real and valuable info that they aren't the best source)
"Climax" comes from the same tape as "Lisa", "Vibrator" and the late 1983 "Billy" rehearsal...
usually known as "Leaped7689"
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Reply #25 posted 11/13/19 11:06am

LoveGalore

PurpleMusic7689 said:

The titles are indeed "Climax" and "Divinity" ("Climax" even being confirmed by Duane... And start ignoring PVault... They've taken off so much real and valuable info that they aren't the best source)
"Climax" comes from the same tape as "Lisa", "Vibrator" and the late 1983 "Billy" rehearsal...


Cool!

Where did Duane verify that, if I might ask? Just haven't read any interviews or anything with him - I don't doubt your info!

By same tape do you mean prince made a tape for someone with this stuff? Kind of a weird assortment, no? Lisa is from 1980.
[Edited 11/13/19 11:07am]
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Reply #26 posted 11/13/19 7:50pm

PurpleMusic768
9

avatar

LoveGalore said:

PurpleMusic7689 said:

The titles are indeed "Climax" and "Divinity" ("Climax" even being confirmed by Duane... And start ignoring PVault... They've taken off so much real and valuable info that they aren't the best source)
"Climax" comes from the same tape as "Lisa", "Vibrator" and the late 1983 "Billy" rehearsal...


Cool!

Where did Duane verify that, if I might ask? Just haven't read any interviews or anything with him - I don't doubt your info!

By same tape do you mean prince made a tape for someone with this stuff? Kind of a weird assortment, no? Lisa is from 1980.
[Edited 11/13/19 11:07am]

He mentioned the title in his book I believe, but went no further since he had no information as to recording date other than around the date I mentioned (which I pinned down further thanks to "Vibrator")...
You'll have to take my well-researched word for "Divinity"...
Yes, weird assortment, but, chances are that the original owner made the tape off of multiple tapes he owned to save space/money or scam potential buyers etc.
Or Prince may have done work on "Lisa" at the time... IDK, all the other tracks on it are from 1983 except for "Lisa"...
usually known as "Leaped7689"
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Reply #27 posted 11/13/19 7:58pm

purplepolitici
an

avatar

Both funky than Aretha 🙏 with a sack of Fritos all I know.
For all time I am with you, you are with me.
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Reply #28 posted 11/13/19 11:27pm

LoveGalore

PurpleMusic7689 said:

LoveGalore said:



Cool!

Where did Duane verify that, if I might ask? Just haven't read any interviews or anything with him - I don't doubt your info!

By same tape do you mean prince made a tape for someone with this stuff? Kind of a weird assortment, no? Lisa is from 1980.
[Edited 11/13/19 11:07am]

He mentioned the title in his book I believe, but went no further since he had no information as to recording date other than around the date I mentioned (which I pinned down further thanks to "Vibrator")...
You'll have to take my well-researched word for "Divinity"...
Yes, weird assortment, but, chances are that the original owner made the tape off of multiple tapes he owned to save space/money or scam potential buyers etc.
Or Prince may have done work on "Lisa" at the time... IDK, all the other tracks on it are from 1983 except for "Lisa"...


I really need to go back to the book, hahah.

It is fascinating to me that these two tracks are so mysterious! Climax has been around forever and was certainly one of the first boots I ever had so I would figure that it should have a bit less guesswork around it - namely, the life of the song and if it ever got vocals etc. But I guess there's only so much one can sleuth out in these, especially now with the man himself gone!

I like Divinity a lot, it has always struck me as very weird to call it LUA 2 as it doesn't really have much resemblance to Lust U Always, imo. That keyboard motif is not similar enough to me. Wish we had more info about what happened to Lust U Always in 87 and if he actually rerecorded it at some point.
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Reply #29 posted 11/14/19 1:20am

imprimis

I believe he goes through 'Lisa' a few times during maybe during the same Revolution rehearsal we have circulating that features 'The Get Down' and 'Katrina's Paper Dolls'? Perhaps he reviewed this again in 1983?

.

To me, there's substantial enough similarity to the leadline (and also guitar motif) and structure of LUA and 'Divinity', although highly remote in production styling, as if he's trying to make a much harder-hitting version. spoken section. . . 'I lust U always, I lust u always. . . U're all I want to to do (I lust U always)'. . . break into spoken section. . .

.

This has been described as a LUA since before the time that even some well connected bootleggers had any form of what is now being described as the 1982 (and possibly only) version.

.

It could be just a 'Sugar Walls' sounds like 'Possessed '84' type of situation. It seems to have a vocal of some sort that we are being deprived of, though.

.

'LUA2' or anything else, its run-length shouldn't be held as conclusive evidence that it was meant strictly to be an instrumental (although it may have ended up that way), as ten minutes would not be unusual for an unedited piece in this era.

.

[Edited 11/14/19 1:57am]

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