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Reply #120 posted 11/15/18 10:21am

purplefam99

iZsaZsa said:

bonatoc said:

"Purple" Music/Rain/Hippies was a much better idea, a fresh one,
that even red and yellows and greens could join: it's a the end/top of the rainbow.
The fact that it's the color of royalty is the cherry on top of reality.
Since it's not a color skin, it can only happen in the brain. Or the heart.
So what's outside is less what's inside.
Lawd, I'm feeling like ghostwriting on Love4OneAnother.com.


smile Nice.

And, it kind of is, if you know what it mean.

yes and some black people are a lovely Blue black.

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Reply #121 posted 11/15/18 10:25am

bonatoc

avatar

purplefam99 said:

iZsaZsa said:


smile Nice.

And, it kind of is, if you know what it mean.

00240_01_hansel.jpg?sw=387&cx=374&cy=0&cw=1196&ch=1196

yes and some black people are a lovely Blue black.


Some l.m.ust be long as a limousine then.
The more you wait for it, the more it turns blue.
Überblau. What a ride...

[Edited 11/15/18 10:26am]

The Colors R brighter, the Bond is much tighter
No Child's a failure
Until the Blue Sailboat sails him away from his dreams
Don't Ever Lose, Don't Ever Lose
Don't Ever Lose Your Dreams
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Reply #122 posted 11/15/18 11:13am

langebleu

avatar

moderator

ABro said:

Very interesting essay by Scott Woods

https://scottwoodsmakeslists.wordpress.com/2018/11/05/reclaiming-the-black-prince/

Thank you for posting this.

ALT+PLS+RTN: Pure as a pane of ice. It's a gift.
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Reply #123 posted 11/15/18 11:24am

mtlfan

OldFriends4Sale said:

looks interesting. Will check it out.
His sister refered to him as 'the Prince of Darkness'

Do you know where I can find this quote?

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Reply #124 posted 11/15/18 11:30am

OldFriends4Sal
e

avatar

moderator

mtlfan said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

looks interesting. Will check it out.
His sister refered to him as 'the Prince of Darkness'

Do you know where I can find this quote?

I believe there is a video from 1990 or 1991 with Sharon and her father (I think this is when Prince and those 2 fell out)

here it is: https://www.youtube.com/w...yr-TaMi0gA

#ALBUMSSTILLMATTER
https://prince.org/msg/7/463568
https://prince.org/msg/8/463899?&pg=1
https://www.youtube.com/w...M0JN5IAD50
#IDEFINEME
What's the matter with your life
Is poverty bringing U down?
Is the mailman jerking U 'round?
Did he pu
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Reply #125 posted 11/15/18 1:32pm

Mintchip

avatar

I'm a 39 year old white fan, American, on board since I got 'The Hits/B-Sides' in 1993. IMO, it was hard not to see Prince as a black artist, if only because he always seemed so interested in his own blackness. This was the era where - at least as the mainstream press would have it - Prince was deliberately trying to reconnect with the black / r&b audience that had left him by the time of 'Lovesexy'. Whatever post-racial platitudes I heard - either in the past, as in 'Controversy', or the present, as in 'Race' - I took to be Prince's then-current idealism for a dream world that could be. This being Prince, "then-current" meant for the rest of the four-minute song. In the next song, he might talk to Dolphins. All the while being undeniably black, straight, and male. That's Prince, containing multitudes.

.

As we revise our history of what-Prince-felt-when, I think it would be a shame if we lost sight of his daffy, idealistic, younger, naive, self. There has to be a way in which, yes, the lyrics to 'Controversy' were racial coding to earn Prince those white dollar$$, but also, yes, Prince believed in hippy-dippy post-racial Utopias, and sometimes it was really dorky.

.

Something about the essay, which I found enjoyable and thought-provoking, feels a little straw-manny. We're told most white fans either feel 1. that Prince's main influences were white, or 2. that Prince was not a "black" artist, but we're not given a lot of proof of the supposed prevalence of either opinion. The largest Prince biography only spends 10 pages on his Minneapolis music scene years, which I suppose could be the white author's bias. It could also be because Prince himself showed no interest in mythologizing those years - as oppose to The Beatles, who wore their Hamburg days on their sleeves - or that Prince was signed to WB and released "For You" by the time he was 18.

.

Put another way, where - how - and why - would a white Prince fan go to express 1. he was black, primarily and undeniably, and 2. he was inspired by scores of great other black artists. He was, no doubt. Those facts alone are enough to make this white fan stfu, and not insert himself into conversations where he has no place. All thats left are vocal white fans, who feel otherwise, often because they're not American, and want to connect. I don't think it's most, though. Not most.

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Reply #126 posted 11/15/18 1:55pm

namepeace

Mintchip said:

I'm a 39 year old white fan, American, on board since I got 'The Hits/B-Sides' in 1993. IMO, it was hard not to see Prince as a black artist, if only because he always seemed so interested in his own blackness. This was the era where - at least as the mainstream press would have it - Prince was deliberately trying to reconnect with the black / r&b audience that had left him by the time of 'Lovesexy'. Whatever post-racial platitudes I heard - either in the past, as in 'Controversy', or the present, as in 'Race' - I took to be Prince's then-current idealism for a dream world that could be. This being Prince, "then-current" meant for the rest of the four-minute song. In the next song, he might talk to Dolphins. All the while being undeniably black, straight, and male. That's Prince, containing multitudes.

.

As we revise our history of what-Prince-felt-when, I think it would be a shame if we lost sight of his daffy, idealistic, younger, naive, self. There has to be a way in which, yes, the lyrics to 'Controversy' were racial coding to earn Prince those white dollar$$, but also, yes, Prince believed in hippy-dippy post-racial Utopias, and sometimes it was really dorky.

.

Something about the essay, which I found enjoyable and thought-provoking, feels a little straw-manny. We're told most white fans either feel 1. that Prince's main influences were white, or 2. that Prince was not a "black" artist, but we're not given a lot of proof of the supposed prevalence of either opinion. The largest Prince biography only spends 10 pages on his Minneapolis music scene years, which I suppose could be the white author's bias. It could also be because Prince himself showed no interest in mythologizing those years - as oppose to The Beatles, who wore their Hamburg days on their sleeves - or that Prince was signed to WB and released "For You" by the time he was 18.

.

Put another way, where - how - and why - would a white Prince fan go to express 1. he was black, primarily and undeniably, and 2. he was inspired by scores of great other black artists. He was, no doubt. Those facts alone are enough to make this white fan stfu, and not insert himself into conversations where he has no place. All thats left are vocal white fans, who feel otherwise, often because they're not American, and want to connect. I don't think it's most, though. Not most.


Really nicely written. Thanks for this.

Good night, sweet Prince | 7 June 1958 - 21 April 2016

Props will be withheld until the showing and proving has commenced. -- Aaron McGruder
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Reply #127 posted 11/15/18 2:29pm

peggyon

Agree.

namepeace said:

Mintchip said:

I'm a 39 year old white fan, American, on board since I got 'The Hits/B-Sides' in 1993. IMO, it was hard not to see Prince as a black artist, if only because he always seemed so interested in his own blackness. This was the era where - at least as the mainstream press would have it - Prince was deliberately trying to reconnect with the black / r&b audience that had left him by the time of 'Lovesexy'. Whatever post-racial platitudes I heard - either in the past, as in 'Controversy', or the present, as in 'Race' - I took to be Prince's then-current idealism for a dream world that could be. This being Prince, "then-current" meant for the rest of the four-minute song. In the next song, he might talk to Dolphins. All the while being undeniably black, straight, and male. That's Prince, containing multitudes.

.

As we revise our history of what-Prince-felt-when, I think it would be a shame if we lost sight of his daffy, idealistic, younger, naive, self. There has to be a way in which, yes, the lyrics to 'Controversy' were racial coding to earn Prince those white dollar$$, but also, yes, Prince believed in hippy-dippy post-racial Utopias, and sometimes it was really dorky.

.

Something about the essay, which I found enjoyable and thought-provoking, feels a little straw-manny. We're told most white fans either feel 1. that Prince's main influences were white, or 2. that Prince was not a "black" artist, but we're not given a lot of proof of the supposed prevalence of either opinion. The largest Prince biography only spends 10 pages on his Minneapolis music scene years, which I suppose could be the white author's bias. It could also be because Prince himself showed no interest in mythologizing those years - as oppose to The Beatles, who wore their Hamburg days on their sleeves - or that Prince was signed to WB and released "For You" by the time he was 18.

.

Put another way, where - how - and why - would a white Prince fan go to express 1. he was black, primarily and undeniably, and 2. he was inspired by scores of great other black artists. He was, no doubt. Those facts alone are enough to make this white fan stfu, and not insert himself into conversations where he has no place. All thats left are vocal white fans, who feel otherwise, often because they're not American, and want to connect. I don't think it's most, though. Not most.


Really nicely written. Thanks for this.

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Reply #128 posted 11/15/18 2:39pm

OldFriends4Sal
e

avatar

moderator

Mintchip said:

I'm a 39 year old white fan, American, on board since I got 'The Hits/B-Sides' in 1993. IMO, it was hard not to see Prince as a black artist, if only because he always seemed so interested in his own blackness. This was the era where - at least as the mainstream press would have it - Prince was deliberately trying to reconnect with the black / r&b audience that had left him by the time of 'Lovesexy'. Whatever post-racial platitudes I heard - either in the past, as in 'Controversy', or the present, as in 'Race' - I took to be Prince's then-current idealism for a dream world that could be. This being Prince, "then-current" meant for the rest of the four-minute song. In the next song, he might talk to Dolphins. All the while being undeniably black, straight, and male. That's Prince, containing multitudes.

.

As we revise our history of what-Prince-felt-when, I think it would be a shame if we lost sight of his daffy, idealistic, younger, naive, self. There has to be a way in which, yes, the lyrics to 'Controversy' were racial coding to earn Prince those white dollar$$, but also, yes, Prince believed in hippy-dippy post-racial Utopias, and sometimes it was really dorky.

.

Something about the essay, which I found enjoyable and thought-provoking, feels a little straw-manny. We're told most white fans either feel 1. that Prince's main influences were white, or 2. that Prince was not a "black" artist, but we're not given a lot of proof of the supposed prevalence of either opinion. The largest Prince biography only spends 10 pages on his Minneapolis music scene years, which I suppose could be the white author's bias. It could also be because Prince himself showed no interest in mythologizing those years - as oppose to The Beatles, who wore their Hamburg days on their sleeves - or that Prince was signed to WB and released "For You" by the time he was 18.

.

Put another way, where - how - and why - would a white Prince fan go to express 1. he was black, primarily and undeniably, and 2. he was inspired by scores of great other black artists. He was, no doubt. Those facts alone are enough to make this white fan stfu, and not insert himself into conversations where he has no place. All thats left are vocal white fans, who feel otherwise, often because they're not American, and want to connect. I don't think it's most, though. Not most.

In know in this racialized or polarized society we live in, it's hard to see grays when black n white are so prevailent. It's interesting that people who fall outside of 'black' identified or 'white' identified are not usually acknowledged, like scores of Asian fans, Latino fans, Euro ethnic identified fans, African ethnic identified fans, Middle Easterners, Indians and Multiethnic(racial)/Mixed identified people.
.
But that is the polarizing politicized issues of race as we know it US of A

And race is treated like a religious dogma, defined by biology, which is usually not the case.

We don't do good with grays, we don't do good with most things that are not somewhere in between. There is murder and their is living, we wrestle with suicide. Evil or Good, we wrestle with the conflict of what is inbetween that when it comes to humans. People troubled that Prince wore lace, and heels and things that just were not 'manly' to them, and now are saying(trying to) that it was all just an act. His whole life... was an act. Because they struggle with their own internalized and socialized phobias

.

Joni Mitchell and Chaka Khan
Sly & the Family Stone and Led Zeppelin
James Brown and Bruce Springsteen
Charlie Chaplin and others
etc etc etc

.

I love people who ask questions, don't go along with the group think(sometimes it's good), I love the Prince kept asking questions. Challenging himself and others. His thoughts on Muslim societies that made me go back and look again. I call to mind the 2011 interview where he is with a 'white' female interviewer and she refers to him in an 'introduction' as ...a musician who is black... something like that and Prince stretches out his arm next to hers and asks "Am I?" as she exhales saying his skin is lighter than hers. keep asking questions people, keep breaking down the societal political boxes.

.

The job of the artist
is always to deepen

the mystery.

-Francis Bacon

#ALBUMSSTILLMATTER
https://prince.org/msg/7/463568
https://prince.org/msg/8/463899?&pg=1
https://www.youtube.com/w...M0JN5IAD50
#IDEFINEME
What's the matter with your life
Is poverty bringing U down?
Is the mailman jerking U 'round?
Did he pu
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Reply #129 posted 11/15/18 2:47pm

bonatoc

avatar

For the record: "Sign O' The Times", "Dance On" and "Positivity" were songs that teached all european teen-agers fans back in the days
to pay attention to events you wouldn't be in the known of, hadn't your mama a Newsweek magazine overseas subscription.
"Controversy" brought the basics, heck no, "Uptown" did.
Prince got us all to racial issues pretty quick. Or are we gonna leave the portoricans out of this ("Please, yes!", screamed the latino, dolls and others)?

Prince had his Beatlemania reversed. It was not the British invasion.
It was the Afro-American invasion. In all serious french (or european) music magazines, there has never been a single omission
of Prince (nor Michael) origins and upbringings. And as a kid, I learned a lot of unknown black musicians quoted as references,
which some to this date I haven't listened (yet). There's a love-hate relationship between France and many african countries.
They still want to use french as their language. Maybe they have to. Maybe it's too late and you have to do with what you get.
Colonialism is as convenient as slavery. Maybe more: you force poor people to stay in their poor (wasn't it "shithole"?) countries.

To be fair, we european still have kings, but we also have an international section in each one of our national newspapers since eons.
Since Europe is different folks stitched closely together, some french here can't really grasp the much bigger land the US are: France is as big as Texas.
But since their teens, europeans have grown to the steady message that Europe is above us, much in the way federal laws are above the states.
Every country is mildly racist, ranging to mildly (the same way an american mocks a specific state) to,
alas recently with the raise of foolishness, full force xenophobism.
Still Europe hangs, and proves it's possible to leave mass slaughters behind.
We know about Africa and the Middle East because they're close, we can't escape them.
The UK is awakening to the fact that they ain't going anywhere, realize they have been fooled,
like the US will someday, in some state of fake paranoia. The money's circulation is such a torrent now. It is unstoppable.
The Union of the countries is inevitable. It works better for everyone. That's basic economics. But it doesn't get you the votes. Yet.

Guess what the french elites Florida equivalent is: North Africa.
Masks from Mali can be found in many french white families living-rooms. Kenyan cheap handmade paintings hangs on modest apartments walls.
I've seen black folks in France going from sweeper to barmaid to major network news anchorman
in twenty years without any r... Oh, wait, we have riots too! And angry white old men.
Wait, didn't we have a patent on this model? Or this one?
Trump owes us the copyrights! Anyway, there is emancipation and progress on this shore too.
You had a president, maybe we'll have a pope.

At 13, I went walking (circulation had been cut) joining a whooping 1985 500.000 parisians,
for the first and massive anti-racist concert ever in France. Half a million on Place de la Concorde.
Don't misunderstand me: they came for the free music only. Or did they?
If we're doing some stats, only a 15% percent of the crowd was either black or arab teenagers,

and the rest were pink girls and boys who knew the only good dance music comes from Africa.
Half of the luxury parisian apartments were left empty that night, and no criminal acts to report.
The message went both ways. The symbol of this day is still very much alive.
That's why we get all susceptible about diversity in sports team.
Susceptible, not dumb.

Because Dance Music is our culture. Not the silly one. James, Otis, Wilson, Nina, We were in full 50's revival.
French youth never pretended dance music was not african. So when we heard, a year later,
that Cab Calloway, Joséphine Baker, Miles Davis and Elvis were coming back to Paris,
all rolled into one, new, totally different, short-haired Prince we simply pissed our pants.
The Second Coming, I kid you not.

It went way beyond entertainment. France prouds itself to have good historians.
Like the saxons, we're analytical, so the european press always made sure
we got the right message: Prince couldn't exist ex nihilo: he was the evolution of Black Music.
And therefore what happened before Prince came, under which conditions, etc.

The Black Album. This was not about Lennon/Macca pastiches anymore. We frenchies intellectual got the pun.
But since we're latin too, we need the guts. And when it came to guts it did not matter what particular color palette Prince was.
In France, Funk had always united black, arabs and gallo-romans: it just meant you had good taste.
That's all what counts. The attitude. This is the country that wrote the human rights. We're still working on it,
but the worst is behind us. Or so it seems... Detroit, what happened?

The politics of Prince are fundamental. In 1985, we still had punks all over Paris, and I mean London-like punks.
Like Dylan pretending he had a à la Guthrie hobo's past, Prince adopted the european urban youth attitude and raised the middle finger black american entertainers had forgotten,
all bathing in disco money and coke. Rick James wasn't dangerous. He was capitalism, like the difference between erotica and a small buget porn movie. The tamed clown.
"I could never consider sex trivial", said Prince. This comes from someone with european romantic fantasies.
Finesse. Champagne.

Prince, inspired by a current overseas movement, whites vomiting on their own fucked up system,
realizes the anger against the supremacy, white by reality/default, is the same all across the world. There are uptowns everywhere.
Let's encourage every pink, red, yellow striped in black or any rainbow-stained ass that tries to subvert it,
instead of feeding the beast by thinking yet again in categories and drawers, from the usual and suspiciously paranoid standpoint.

Prince understands the punk movement, he digs it, he studies history and daydreams about a foreign country
where peace can be found ("why 'Free In Paris', Joni? And what's with this Bastille Day?").
The (sexual) Revolution, the laces, the broderies. Exotica. What should we do?
Claim back all that Prince stole from France? It just means he had good taste.

Once in Europe, they were Princes that paid lots of Gold for culture.
They wanted to have the best artists around them. The Arts were where the money was.
It was not about the biggest ship, it was about the most expressive painting or symphony.
Gold was just crude matter. An emotion framed in time was slowly beginning to be considered much worthwhile.
It didn't matter what country or culture it came from.


And then we all flunked it again, remember.


We'll get there, I don't despair.
Do U?



P.S.: Such threads are nothing but a mass genocide perpetrated against my working hours.
Anyone got The Hague's prefix? I need to denounce a Trojan Horse for illegal productivity hacking.


[Edited 11/15/18 15:35pm]

[Edited 11/15/18 15:43pm]

[Edited 11/15/18 16:29pm]

The Colors R brighter, the Bond is much tighter
No Child's a failure
Until the Blue Sailboat sails him away from his dreams
Don't Ever Lose, Don't Ever Lose
Don't Ever Lose Your Dreams
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Reply #130 posted 11/15/18 6:47pm

ABro

langebleu said:

ABro said:

Very interesting essay by Scott Woods

https://scottwoodsmakeslists.wordpress.com/2018/11/05/reclaiming-the-black-prince/

Thank you for posting this.

You're welcome.

"So much has been written about me, & people don't know what's right & what's wrong. I'd rather let them stay confused." ~ Prince.
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Reply #131 posted 11/15/18 6:56pm

Moonbeam

avatar

babynoz said:

Moonbeam said:

I think this article is quite good. Like it or not, Prince’s continuing legacy is still being written through books, career retrospectives, and extended pieces like this that attempt to contextualize who Prince was as well as how and why he mattered and continues to matter. The truth is that as time passes, it will become increasingly easy for the truth to become distorted because Prince is no longer with us. And while many thinkpieces after his death have attempted to shoehorn Prince into a narrative that isn’t warranted (I remember one that tried to align Prince’s career with hip hop, for example), this isn’t one of them. Prince was a black artist, and his experiences as a black man certainly shaped a lot of what he thought and felt throughout his career, right until the end. If somehow that is becoming lost, then there is every reason for those who know better to present the picture correctly.



clapping highfive hug


hug Miss you!

Feel free to join in the Prince Album Poll 2018! Let'a celebrate his legacy by counting down the most beloved Prince albums, as decided by you!
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Reply #132 posted 11/15/18 7:08pm

ABro

Mintchip said:

We're told most white fans either feel 1. that Prince's main influences were white, or 2. that Prince was not a "black" artist, but we're not given a lot of proof of the supposed prevalence of either opinion.

.


I don't think it's most, though. Not most.


Scott Woods didn't say it's most of Prince's white fans, he is discussing the "problematic white fans", which fall into two categories.

I've been in this little purple world since the mid 80s & not a word of the description of those problematic fans is new to me, nor a surprise or controversy.

"So much has been written about me, & people don't know what's right & what's wrong. I'd rather let them stay confused." ~ Prince.
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Reply #133 posted 11/15/18 10:31pm

1725topp

bonatoc said:

1725topp said:

*

Please don't take what I'm about to say as an insult, but you seem to have a very limited understanding of African-American history, especially as it relates to the various ways and ideologies that have permeated the notion and manner of African Americans responding to and engaging white supremacy because you keep trying to create this singular or X or Y notion of how black people responded to white supremacy that they were either militant nationalist or they were not, which is not true. For instance, do you know that the Deacons for Defense, who believed in arm resistance, were regulars in many of the non-violent marches organized by King and other promoters of non-violence? Do you know that King, himself, authorized armed security even while preaching nonviolence until Bayard Rustin convinced him to remove his armed security? By not knowing this type of information, you continue to try to narrow or water-down who Prince was to fit some flat, one-dimensional utopian, multicultural notion because, again, you don't seem to understand the multitude of ways and ideas that African Americans have used to engage and refute white supremacy.

*

So, yes, it's well documented that Prince, himself, lied about his race. It wasn't his handlers lying; it was Prince. Prince was the one lying about his race. But, what you seem to be missing or not knowing is that Prince is not the first African American to play this game as the Harlem Renaissance was built on the construct of the "tragic mulatto" to attract white readers and publishers when the vast majority of the Harlem Renaissance writers were not mulatto. Thus, Prince lying about his race is not an issue of "music uniting us all," but more the understanding that blackness in America is seen as a limitation and often, unfortunately, many African Americans, especially those who could, Prince included, simply used the "tragic mulatto" backstory as entry into the white power structure. Yet, luckily, the Harlem Renaissance and the Civil Rights Movement also gave way to Black Power Movement and its cultural arm, the Black Arts Movement, which produced artists who stopped petitioning white America to see them as human and began creating art to celebrate the beauty and power of African Americans. As such, black people stopped begging white people to be nice to them and started focusing on ways to improve their own plight. And, moreover, this is a normal trend in the history of African-American culture. Even someone like W. E. B. DuBois who is considered the Father of Pan-Africanism began as an integrationist/assimilationist and evolved into a Black Nationalist, which is mostly seen in his later writings and his renouncing his American citizenship and moving to Ghana. Even King in his later years stated, "I think I have integrated my people into a burning house." And, while King was influenced by Malcolm X, to some degree, to realize this, it, again, shows that his narrative arc from integrationist/assimilationist to black self-determinism is normal for African Americans as most have some "come to Jesus" moment in which they wonder if it is ever possible for African Americans to obtain justice and equality in America. It just so happens that Prince's "come to Jesus" moment was his battle with Warner Bros, which many people attempt to minimize because few people want to hear a millionaire complain about being mistreated. Yet, whatever the issue was, it cannot be denied that Prince followed this traditional narrative arc of African-American history to question whether integration or self-determinism is best for himself, African Americans, and African people in general.

*

As such, the "butterscotch/chocolate" comment in Under the Cherry Moon by Prince, when placed in proper context, is a sign of Prince's recognition of the history of American miscegenation in the least or a reflection of self-hatred in the worst, even if it is funny. To be clear, it's a funny line, especially when coupled with "And when the police come to carry yo' ass to the joint, this is me. 'Oh no, officer, I don't know him. We definitely have different fathers.'" Yet, whenever I view this scene, I wonder if white people, whether American whites or European whites, truly get this joke from a socio-political/historical context of race in America. And for those who say, "But, the film is made in France," that just shows, again, how little they know about African-American history because, if they knew anything about African-American history, they would know that one of the themes of the Harlem Renaissance is that of fleeing America for Europe, which, of course, works well with "Paris 1798430" when the lyrics state, "Ain't no where else to run when it's from Uncle Sam/ Paris 1798430 that's where a brother be hiding 'til he get his due." So, Prince filming a movie in France in which he addresses the issue of color complex, even in a humorous manner, is both fitting and a socio-political commentary. But, again, most folks who don't understand the complex nuances and subtles of African-American history and the various ideologies that the complexity has spawned just wouldn't get it because most of these folks only know King or Malcolm but don't know the various organizations of the Civil Rights Movement, such as NAACP, SCLC, SNCC, Core, COFO, National of Islam, Urban League, and so many more. So, to say, as you have in the past, that Prince's socio-politcal commentary or actions should be minmized or ignored shows that you don't seem to understand the multitude of ways in which various African Americans have contributed to the struggle against white supremacy. Not every black person has been a Black Panther, but may black people have contributed in their own way to refute white supremacy. And, while Prince did begin by promoting the multicultural utopia, the reality that America is built on the foundation of white supremacy caused him to reevaluate that position and embrace black self-determinism, which, again, is a very traditional African-American narrative.

*

Allow me to end by saying that I often like reading your posts even if I don't always agree with them. But, in a lot of cases, you seem to address the various issue of Prince and race either by removing Prince's work from the context of America's racial history or not being able to connect what he was doing with the larger narrative of America's racial history. Yet, studying his early work (1978 - 1983), there is so much that indicates that Prince saw himself as a black (African American) man firmly rooted in the African-American community/culture who was also looking for a way to be more than what a system build on white supremacy wanted him to be. One only needs to remember aspects, such as Prince's great interview with noted music journalist Carol Cooper as well as the deleted stanza from "Jerk Out," to understand that Prince, again, saw himself as an African-American man struggling against a system rooted in white supremacy. Thus, the real questions are why are so many of Prince's white and mix-raced fans so bothered by this, and what does their issue with Prince being an African American say them? I guess Miles Davis was right. White people can only truly see/appreciate black art when they can see themselves in it or when that art reflects some stereotypical (negative) or safe notion of how whites view blacks.


Fascinating thoughts, thanks.

It only goes to show the differences in perceptions about Africa around here and the US.
Africans have always been in Paris, and I mean at the very heart of the city, not the suburbs.
It's a totally different universe. But there's a slight contradiction in your "fleeing for your Europe" paragraph,
it looks like you're speaking only about this Mecca-like trip to France in terms of the ritual step to be taken by afro-american artists.
When you wonder if europeans "know about it"... Heck, we're the guests!

We know that Miles Davis loved us too: don't go misquote some Tutu ol'fart ranting about diluting Africa.
When he played in Paris in 1960, it wasn't some fucking cringy "Time After Time". It was a critical triumph. Now who's the fool, Miles?
Bitches Brew is considered as a total milestone in France. I've seen Bob Marley posters in rooms all my childhood.
I'm sorry I'm coming up with the most blatant, I can't reference Alpha Blondy or Mori Kanté or Angélique Kidjo, Amadou et Mariam,
100% genuine african folks that had number ones in the charts without the need of the separate billboards, for crying out loud.

A song sung in Arab made the top 10. Salman Rushdie is a household name. We also have the Middle East not far away.
American bombers take off from Italy to go bomb the arab men, women and children.
For France, Africa is ALSO butterscotch: in the "north states" (Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia...).
Prince in UTCM joke tells us: 1. Cops are dumb. 2. Racism never ends. It can be intracommunataurian.
Prince probably had some childhood jokes to get revenge against. And a peace message for the kids.

So of course I can only get 1% of the situation in the US, let alone understand it. But it seems to me that Prince shied away from race
and that what is mistaken as discovering his "final" identity (like being black would be the final state of humankind) is just Prince disgusted at his Homeland.
It's very possible Prince, after just entertaining, got sensible about the most blatant injustice in the US, the way black people are treated: of course, he's black!
It's only natural for the black community to claim his work, especially after "Baltimore" (by far not his only gesture/action, but a definitive one: no one else showed up that fast),
but the black community should be careful not to kill its best Trojan Horses. To declare we whities just stand on the surface of things
by doing a history course that is very insular in culture does not help. Or rather, it does, but bridges across cultures need both pillars to carry people.
Yeah, I'm going abstract again, I can't help it. But communication is what it is. Communatarism is what it is.
I get it's the only sane response in the real world. But isn't art supposed to elevate it, and us?

But you can say mentioning about the "multitudes of ways afro-american have fought white supremacy" can also being intepreted as an alibi
to make every action taken by an afro-american as an indisputable, inseparable part of the indispensable fight against the white supremacy.
"Many indications"... I don't think there's an award to be won for the first who gets it. I don't get the Agatha Christie posture, there's no big negationism at hand.
At least not in Europe. "You're gonna have to fight your own damn war?". I vote for Peace.
Maybe we're more of a Coke Ad from afar, but nothing's so simple.

Europe is the bastard (argggh, the mulatto ghost is back!) child of different countries, speaking different languages with totally different cultures,
that had to get along otherwise it was just war all over again, and we've been through that, so maybe we got something White America still has to catch on, if it ever will.
Whatever happened has to be put behind to move on. And memory serves as a warning, and should never be erased or falsified.

Maybe the L.A. riots should have gone to the extremes when there was still time, but the first black POTUS did not come from violence.
I'm the kind of guy who puts this stuff at 11 and sometimes daydreams about a violent revolution, because, why always curb the chin, right?

Thanks for the long read, lots of interesting stuff and names that I'm going to check.

*

As usual, you have provided a lot of good food for thought, but there are a couple of times I think you may have misunderstood my point. First, when I wonder "whether or not whites get the joke of butterscotch and chocolate, I'm referring specifically to the psychological hell/trama that miscegenation has inflicted on African Americans. We must understand what the joke really is. When Tricky tells Christopher that he "really likes Mary," Christopher retorts with history, with the fact that color and class are inextricably tied in American and global culture. As such, for Christopher, a fair-skinned African American, it is preposterous that a man as dark as Tricky could even dream of being with Mary. It's so preposterous that, if/when the police come to carry Tricky to jail, Christopher would feel safe knowing that he would be more accepted than Tricky. Of course, the catch to that is that even Christopher isn't considered good enough for Mary by Mary's father, but Christoper knows that color has class variations, as in the African American understanding of "White is alright. Brown can stick around. And, Black must get back." As such, my wondering is how many white fans understand how much of that history is encoded in that joke? It doesn't mean that the joke is less funny to them, but it does mean that combining that joke to "Wreka Stow" resonates in an entirely different way to African American viewers than many white viewers, especially if the white viewers don't know the socio-political history that breeds the humor. For many white fans, the "Wreka Stow" joke is a class joke whereas for many African-American fans the "Wreka Stow" joke is a race joke where finally black dialect is able to "one-up" or win over the Queen's English. Moreover, it becomes a moment when something that was traditionally viewed as negative/less intellectual is celebrated as having equal value and worth. To many African Americans, that is the real joke--that something birthed from us is valued for being its own thing and not valued for how much like white it can be made.

*

Next, my point about Miles Davis is not that black artists didn't have "hits" popular with whites. My point is that, as Davis shows in his autobiography, often when white fans and critics rate a black artist's output with a predominately white band versus that same black artist's output with a predominately black band, the music produced by the predominately white band seems always to obtain more support from the white audience and white critics. That was Miles point. And, of course, it may be a none issue, but of the acts that you named, are there any that can be used to show how their work was received by white audiences and critics when they had predominately white bandmates as opposed to predominately black bandmates? For instance, I love the stuff Jimi Hendrix did with the Band of Gypsies, but it was viewed by many white critics and white fans as a betrayal of sorts. The same is true of how Davis is treated by the press and many white fans when comparing his output from his predominately black band to his band with any white musicians. Additionally, I never said that black artists couldn't or didn't have hits on popular charts that are driven by the high number of whites purchasing the music, but, to a degree, you sound like, and I know you don't mean to sound that way, the person in America who points to Oprah Winfrey and Michael Jordan to say that their success means that black people should not comment on continued injustices. As such, the success of the people that you mentioned doesn't negate the truth that Davis wrote. Now, of course, all art is subjective, and all people are drawn to what reflects their sensibilities, as Aristotle stated, "the beauty of the play is man's recognition of himself." Yet, it seems that, often, black artists are asked to deny, lessen, or "water down" their blackness to become more palatable to white critics and audiences in ways that white artists are never asked to do. As Langston Hughes stated, often to be considered universal for black artists is to make oneself "as less Negro and as much American as possible." Yet, this is psychological warfare, especially when, after spending an hour and a half enamored by a white beauty, it is the face of a black woman that scares Christopher straight in Under the Cherry Moon. So, this desire to be "universal" to make oneself more palatable to a massive white audience is often a double-edged sword in which one obtains financial success but at what cost to the individual and collective psyche? When Prince states "Wendy makes me all right in the eyes of people watching," African Americans who know the history of American race must ask, "which people?" because prior to Wendy joining the group Prince was beloved by black radio and the massive black audience. So, again, to which people does Wendy make Prince seem all right, and why are those people more important than the people who loved Prince before Wendy joined the band? And, yes, there were white people in the band before Wendy, but the moment that Wendy joins the band is the moment that the American press stops perceiving Prince's band as a black act as the front faces,--Andre, Prince, and Dez--are all black men.

*

Prince didn't shy from race; he turned it on its head and manipulated it. To be clear, I can see his lying about his race as self-hating and as good business because, again, I know the history of American racism. In Mississippi, there was this African American who had the best selling skins, which is a type of potato chip. But, it became the least favorite chip when he put his face on the bag. I wonder why? Or, why did the early Charlie Pride albums not feature his picture? Or, why were many of Pride's early concerts started with the lights down low so that his mostly white audience who had not seen his picture on the album cover could hear him sing before they see his face? This is the history of America, and Prince was playing that game, navigating those waters. Now, I'm not saying that Prince didn't also believe in his multicultural utopia. But, as Owen Husney states in McInnis' The Lyrics of Prince, "the difference between Prince and Sly Stone, who was devastated when his message of peace and love didn't end the racial divide, is that Prince had his bank account to give him comfort. If his mission of bringing people together failed, he could be consoled by his record sales.” So, Prince was engaging and using race from the beginning, and, of course, he has this natural (historical) arc that causes him to reevaluate this position of what is best for himself and for African Americans. As such, when you warn that "the black community should be careful not to kill its best Trojan Horses," what you don't seem to understand is that you are, in fact, proving Davis' and Hughes' point that appealing to and being palatable to whites is often viewed as more important than creating work that celebrates the beauty and power of African Americans, especially when you and I can provide hundreds of years of white people loving music created by black people, but that white love of black music has not yet produced a society in which black lives have just as much value as white lives. Even in the case of the election of Barack Obama, what is usually selectively omitted from this narrative of American change is that the majority of white voters never voted for Obama. Of course, he did better with white women than white men, but, again, this so-called love that whites have for black music has never really transitioned to or been transferred to socio-political justice. So, those "Trojan Horses" have not done nearly as much as one expected because white supremacy is a form of schizophrenia in that white audiences can enjoy the black body but not respect the black mind, especially when that black mind makes self-love/black love as equally important as love for all mankind.

*

Finally, if you don't view or take Prince seriously as a "socio-political" artist or as an artist who has made important "socio-political" statements, then we'll just have to agree to disagree. I think that "Party Up" is as important a song as "Sign 'O' the Times" as "Dear Mr. Man" as "Sexuality" as "Uptown" as "Family Name" as even a song like "Baby," which addresses unexpected pregnancy by a young couple in a thoughtful manner. Yet, in this case or topic, I know that it is futile to try to convince someone what is socially impactful or relevant to them.

*

Again, thanks for the discussion and insight; it is appreciated.

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Reply #134 posted 11/16/18 7:40am

rdhull

avatar

Muthfuckas stop the dissertations and buy his book.


lol lol

"Climb in my fur."
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Reply #135 posted 11/16/18 8:34am

purplefam99

rdhull said:

Muthfuckas stop the dissertations and buy his book.


lol lol




That^^^the buy the book part. The dissertations portion is needed.
[Edited 11/16/18 8:36am]
[Edited 11/16/18 8:38am]
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Reply #136 posted 11/16/18 8:35am

purplefam99

And this>>>>>>. “It is clear how Prince muddied this water early in his career but I’m here to tell you what every real fan should have learned by now: Prince told people what they wanted to hear so that they would give his music a chance. If he had to exoticize himself by suggesting his parents weren’t black, fine; he would, for a while, become your quadroon or part-Italian mix fantasy if it would make the uncomfortable image of a black man with a guitar take a backseat to the music he was creating.”



From Woods essay. truth.^^^^^


So so much truth in the essay. So much that I have known and felt
My whole life that I didn’t need to hear it but it does feel good
To see it in print for others to hear and know and digest. Thanks for posting and
Thanks to the author.
[Edited 11/16/18 9:17am]
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Reply #137 posted 11/16/18 11:36am

1725topp

rdhull said:

Muthfuckas stop the dissertations and buy his book.


lol lol


*
Aww now, this is one of the few extended conversations that I have had on this site that has not ended in folks cussing each other out and calling each other names...well, at least until you called us mother fornicators. But, I can accept that because I know that you really meant to call us Sexy MF’s. Now, allow me to take my fine ass to da stow and by this book.😀
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Reply #138 posted 11/16/18 11:38am

1725topp

purplefam99 said:

And this>>>>>>. “It is clear how Prince muddied this water early in his career but I’m here to tell you what every real fan should have learned by now: Prince told people what they wanted to hear so that they would give his music a chance. If he had to exoticize himself by suggesting his parents weren’t black, fine; he would, for a while, become your quadroon or part-Italian mix fantasy if it would make the uncomfortable image of a black man with a guitar take a backseat to the music he was creating.”



From Woods essay. truth.^^^^^


So so much truth in the essay. So much that I have known and felt
My whole life that I didn’t need to hear it but it does feel good
To see it in print for others to hear and know and digest. Thanks for posting and
Thanks to the author.
[Edited 11/16/18 9:17am]

*
Amen and ashe’.
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Reply #139 posted 11/16/18 11:57am

namepeace

1725topp said:

purplefam99 said:
And this>>>>>>. “It is clear how Prince muddied this water early in his career but I’m here to tell you what every real fan should have learned by now: Prince told people what they wanted to hear so that they would give his music a chance. If he had to exoticize himself by suggesting his parents weren’t black, fine; he would, for a while, become your quadroon or part-Italian mix fantasy if it would make the uncomfortable image of a black man with a guitar take a backseat to the music he was creating.” From Woods essay. truth.^^^^^ So so much truth in the essay. So much that I have known and felt My whole life that I didn’t need to hear it but it does feel good To see it in print for others to hear and know and digest. Thanks for posting and Thanks to the author. [Edited 11/16/18 9:17am]
* Amen and ashe’.


My fault . . . I missed this part in the original article, and as I said before, I don't knock the hustle one bit. So he did deal with Prince's direct role in the racial mythmaking, and very well.

Madge and Michael get a lot of credit for building their image, but Prince rocketed to stardom by diluting his. It's funny that the author points out that what many black folk said (at the time) was actually the opposite: in many ways his music got blacker after superstardom.


[Edited 11/16/18 11:57am]

Good night, sweet Prince | 7 June 1958 - 21 April 2016

Props will be withheld until the showing and proving has commenced. -- Aaron McGruder
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Reply #140 posted 11/16/18 12:07pm

mtlfan

OldFriends4Sale said:

mtlfan said:

Do you know where I can find this quote?

I believe there is a video from 1990 or 1991 with Sharon and her father (I think this is when Prince and those 2 fell out)

here it is: https://www.youtube.com/w...yr-TaMi0gA

Wicked, thanks!

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Reply #141 posted 11/16/18 12:35pm

rdhull

avatar

1725topp said:

rdhull said:

Muthfuckas stop the dissertations and buy his book.


lol lol

* Aww now, this is one of the few extended conversations that I have had on this site that has not ended in folks cussing each other out and calling each other names...well, at least until you called us mother fornicators. But, I can accept that because I know that you really meant to call us Sexy MF’s. Now, allow me to take my fine ass to da stow and by this book.😀

I need to do so to get yall pontificators in line lol.Trust me I like intellctualizing Prince as his works deserve it. I just want the dude that BEGAT all this to get some deserved credit and to remind us the crux of this is also he has a book of essays about all of this for sale. Everyone is always excited about picture books, studio books, and these just as important works go the wayside/unheralded.

(btw me saying muthafuckas is a term of endearment..everyone who knows my name knows that lol)

"Climb in my fur."
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Reply #142 posted 11/16/18 1:16pm

purplefam99

rdhull said:

1725topp said:

rdhull said: * Aww now, this is one of the few extended conversations that I have had on this site that has not ended in folks cussing each other out and calling each other names...well, at least until you called us mother fornicators. But, I can accept that because I know that you really meant to call us Sexy MF’s. Now, allow me to take my fine ass to da stow and by this book.😀

I need to do so to get yall pontificators in line lol.Trust me I like intellctualizing Prince as his works deserve it. I just want the dude that BEGAT all this to get some deserved credit and to remind us the crux of this is also he has a book of essays about all of this for sale. Everyone is always excited about picture books, studio books, and these just as important works go the wayside/unheralded.

(btw me saying muthafuckas is a term of endearment..everyone who knows my name knows that lol)

and it would be a shame for anyone who calls themselves a "serious collector" to not have this

as a part of your Prince book collection. If you do call yourself "serious colletor" and then don't collect this.......

Yikes!!! I guess, perhaps, that would be why the essay was written.

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Reply #143 posted 11/16/18 1:27pm

purplefam99

Will this thread be Sticky?

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Reply #144 posted 11/16/18 2:33pm

rdhull

avatar

purplefam99 said:

Will this thread be Sticky?

It should be. Every other nook and cranny about shit gets stickified. But maybe like the essayist stated..depends on who is writing something about Prince etc etc...because that essay alone is a Sweet Sticky Thang.

"Climb in my fur."
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Reply #145 posted 11/16/18 4:09pm

1725topp

rdhull said:

1725topp said:

rdhull said: * Aww now, this is one of the few extended conversations that I have had on this site that has not ended in folks cussing each other out and calling each other names...well, at least until you called us mother fornicators. But, I can accept that because I know that you really meant to call us Sexy MF’s. Now, allow me to take my fine ass to da stow and by this book.😀

I need to do so to get yall pontificators in line lol.Trust me I like intellctualizing Prince as his works deserve it. I just want the dude that BEGAT all this to get some deserved credit and to remind us the crux of this is also he has a book of essays about all of this for sale. Everyone is always excited about picture books, studio books, and these just as important works go the wayside/unheralded.

(btw me saying muthafuckas is a term of endearment..everyone who knows my name knows that lol)

*

I agree that these types of books should be celebrated as much, if not more, than the picture books.

*

And, I completely understand your use of muthafuckas as muthafuckas can be a noun, adjective, adverb, preposition, gerund, and verb as in "It's colder than a muthafucka" or "That's my muthafucka" or "He's a bad muthafucka" or "That's my muthafuckin' jam."

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Reply #146 posted 11/16/18 4:35pm

rdhull

avatar

How come there ain’t no brothas on the sticky, Sal!?(c) Buggin Out/Do The Right Thing
lol
"Climb in my fur."
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Reply #147 posted 11/16/18 6:34pm

purplefam99

rdhull said:

purplefam99 said:

Will this thread be Sticky?

It should be. Every other nook and cranny about shit gets stickified. But maybe like the essayist stated..depends on who is writing something about Prince etc etc...because that essay alone is a Sweet Sticky Thang.

^^mmmmhmm......maybe.

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Reply #148 posted 11/16/18 6:50pm

purplefam99

rdhull said:

Some of these posts are the reason dudes essay is essential lol. smh at those who still dont get it.

i'm re reading the thread cause wanted to make sure i read all comments.

and i am stunned. You think they even read the whole essay???? Doesn't seem like it.

it is totally why he wrote it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Reply #149 posted 11/16/18 7:29pm

ABro

rdhull said:

How come there ain’t no brothas on the sticky, Sal!?(c) Buggin Out/Do The Right Thing lol

lol

"So much has been written about me, & people don't know what's right & what's wrong. I'd rather let them stay confused." ~ Prince.
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