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Thread started 05/05/18 4:32am

PurpleBlackmon

Did Prince Record A Demo For The River Run Dry?

I know that this is the one song on The Family album, that Prince really didn't write, but I was hoping that he recorded a version, with his vocals to demo how he wanted the song to be performed.

Anyway now that the vault has been moved, it's unlikely that it would ever get leaked anyway. As of matter of fact, there won't be anymore leaks of anything .

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Reply #1 posted 05/05/18 8:53am

TrivialPursuit

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You should ready Duane Tudahl's book. That's in there. The book is really a timeilne of 1983 and 1984 and the sessions (mostly at Sunset Sound) that eventually turned into the Purple Rain album. You also read about The Family project, how even before the PR Tour started he had the groundwork for ATWIAD (Pop Life, title track, Paisley Park, Raspberry Beret, She's Always in My Hair), Sheila's album, and more.

Here's a snip about "River Run Dry":

“When it came to filling in The Family album, he spoke to his drummer, Bobby Z, about a song he had recorded in late 1983 called “River Run Dry.” His original demo had a Gary Numan flavor, which continued into the new version slightly tempered by Prince. Bobby Z played drums, Fink played keyboards, and Prince played the remaining instruments in this early mix. The song continues the bass/keyboard leads from Bobby Z’s demo. No saxophone would be recorded for this version of the track.”

“Status: Bobby Z’s demo of “River Run Dry” remains unreleased. Eventually, Paul Peterson and Susannah Melvoin added their vocals to the version (5:08) that was worked on during this session, but most of it would also be shelved once Prince decided to rerecord the music later in the fall. The updated version of the track was placed on the Family’s only album.”

________

It sounds unlikely that Prince recorded a vocal, although the book doesn't say one way or the other. He coached them on it of course, but if you listen to Bobby's released version and The Family, you can conclude that if Z's demo was anywhere close to his released version, then The Family had a good vocal to work from anyway.

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Reply #2 posted 05/05/18 9:31am

Farfunknugin

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It's cool to hear him debut raspberry beret during the piano segment on the PR Tour, It's more straightforward & has more bite to it. Love the youthful exuberance in his delivery too you could tell he was excited to play something new & test the audiences reaction.
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Reply #3 posted 05/05/18 10:07am

TrivialPursuit

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Farfunknugin said:

It's cool to hear him debut raspberry beret during the piano segment on the PR Tour, It's more straightforward & has more bite to it. Love the youthful exuberance in his delivery too you could tell he was excited to play something new & test the audiences reaction.


Yeah, he was also sneaking in "The Ladder" at times, too, if memory serves. And of course, "Temptation" (even on the Syracuse VHS, which was near the end of the tour).

Bobby Z was right, he couldn't wait to get ATWIAD out.

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Reply #4 posted 05/05/18 8:14pm

PeteSilas

TrivialPursuit said:

Farfunknugin said:

It's cool to hear him debut raspberry beret during the piano segment on the PR Tour, It's more straightforward & has more bite to it. Love the youthful exuberance in his delivery too you could tell he was excited to play something new & test the audiences reaction.


Yeah, he was also sneaking in "The Ladder" at times, too, if memory serves. And of course, "Temptation" (even on the Syracuse VHS, which was near the end of the tour).

Bobby Z was right, he couldn't wait to get ATWIAD out.

i didn't hear the ladder on the syracuse vhs, unless you mean the part where he's just talking about temptation. It's funny, much was made of the big PR followup, it was scrutinized, dissected and analyzed in a million directions,little did we know that that man would make a habit of cranking out more and more and more.

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Reply #5 posted 05/05/18 10:16pm

TrivialPursuit

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PeteSilas said:

TrivialPursuit said:


Yeah, he was also sneaking in "The Ladder" at times, too, if memory serves. And of course, "Temptation" (even on the Syracuse VHS, which was near the end of the tour).

Bobby Z was right, he couldn't wait to get ATWIAD out.

i didn't hear the ladder on the syracuse vhs, unless you mean the part where he's just talking about temptation. It's funny, much was made of the big PR followup, it was scrutinized, dissected and analyzed in a million directions,little did we know that that man would make a habit of cranking out more and more and more.


My statement was about "Temptation" specifically. I have heard other versions of "Temptation" worked in different from Syracuse. I would love to hear any of these ATWIAD songs on the PR tour.

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Reply #6 posted 05/06/18 3:41am

JorisE73

PurpleBlackmon said:

Anyway now that the vault has been moved, it's unlikely that it would ever get leaked anyway. As of matter of fact, there won't be anymore leaks of anything .


That's definately not a fact. WB is said to have a lot of tapes containing unreleased music and a lot of leaks are said to have come from these tapes.

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Reply #7 posted 05/06/18 9:20am

TrivialPursuit

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PurpleBlackmon said:

Anyway now that the vault has been moved, it's unlikely that it would ever get leaked anyway. As of matter of fact, there won't be anymore leaks of anything .


Absolutely untrue.

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Reply #8 posted 05/06/18 12:22pm

databank

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PurpleBlackmon said:

I know that this is the one song on The Family album, that Prince really didn't write, but I was hoping that he recorded a version, with his vocals to demo how he wanted the song to be performed.

Anyway now that the vault has been moved, it's unlikely that it would ever get leaked anyway. As of matter of fact, there won't be anymore leaks of anything .

As said above Duane's book doesn't give specifics about the vocals (that I can recall, I haven't reread the whole segment on that song, but I trust Trivial on this), but since he recorded the track, it's likely he did add vocals.

.

The fact that the vault has been moved has nothing to do with leaks. Leaks never came from the vault in the first place. Shit wasn't being stolen from the vault. All the leaks we've had those last few years are from cassettes "elite" traders have had for more than 20 years.

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Reply #9 posted 05/06/18 12:31pm

databank

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JorisE73 said:

PurpleBlackmon said:

Anyway now that the vault has been moved, it's unlikely that it would ever get leaked anyway. As of matter of fact, there won't be anymore leaks of anything .


That's definately not a fact. WB is said to have a lot of tapes containing unreleased music and a lot of leaks are said to have come from these tapes.

If this is the case it goes back to the 80's and 90's. Nothing "new" has leaked that wasn't circulating in some circles for 20-30 years, at least that's what I could gather so far (of course, I'm not privy to every secret). But I don't think too many of those leaks ever came from WB. I only know of one case where a WB exec was behind a leak. Most of it seems to come from cassettes abandonned by Prince in odd places or given to girlfriends, friends and associates.

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Reply #10 posted 05/06/18 3:28pm

TrivialPursuit

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databank said:

PurpleBlackmon said:

I know that this is the one song on The Family album, that Prince really didn't write, but I was hoping that he recorded a version, with his vocals to demo how he wanted the song to be performed.

Anyway now that the vault has been moved, it's unlikely that it would ever get leaked anyway. As of matter of fact, there won't be anymore leaks of anything .

As said above Duane's book doesn't give specifics about the vocals (that I can recall, I haven't reread the whole segment on that song, but I trust Trivial on this), but since he recorded the track, it's likely he did add vocals.

.

Leaks never came from the vault in the first place.


Just for the record, the quote in my earlier post was a copy & paste from Duane's book. It was the first I found about the recording of it specifically (opposed to orchestral overdubs from Clare later on, etc). It's all there was about the recording it to the extent that it was relevant here.

I'm 50/50 on his vocal track existing at some point. It was one of the firsts times he took a song from someone else for one of his projects (notwithstanding it was also a time when he started to open things up to Wendy & Lisa finishing a song because he was also coming up with songs for ATWIAD before the PR tour even started). Bobby's released version is the same melody so I can't imagine Prince feeling the need to record a lead vocal, but it's entirely possible given his penchant for control. If he did, it could very well be gone. Many, many vocal guides were simply erased (per Duane's book). The ones that have leaked were probably from band members or their friends who got a hold of something. So if there was one, there is a good chance it doesn't exist anymore especially because this is such a unique situation compared to others.

Lastly, about the leaks, I agree. No one is going to the vault, pulling a tape out, loading it onto a machine, getting a cassette or whatever nearby and channeled in, and then running the song to copy it, then sneak the master tape back to the vault and file it away. It's a ridiculous concept. Leaks came from people who had copies of the cassettes made after a session. Someone in Prince's house, an engineer, a friend he gave them to, and later people in the NPG store or other employees.

To say there will never be leaks again is simply ignorant. There were live soundboard leaks just a few weeks ago. New York 1986, Denver 1983, Toledo 1983. Even the orchestral "New Position" leaked recently, as did the extended (original) version of "17 Days" (both of which I've seemed to misplace). So the leaks have suddenly stopped? Maybe the OP just isn't in the loop.

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Reply #11 posted 05/06/18 3:39pm

imprimis

Perhaps someone might reach out to Paul to ask what he recalls? I'm in favour of the view that a P vocal track exists, possibly even one competent enough to substitute for the released vocal, as with NC2U (its thematic cousin from the same album).

.

[Edited 5/6/18 15:43pm]

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Reply #12 posted 05/06/18 3:50pm

TrivialPursuit

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imprimis said:

Perhaps someone might reach out to Paul to ask what he recalls?


I just sent him a private message. I'll let you know what he says.

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Reply #13 posted 05/06/18 5:09pm

LeGrinde

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This is a great question and one I have had for years. I'm leaing toward thinking he did record a vocal. I guess Bobby would know as well. If he "reworked" it at all, it seems likely to me--but I am just guessing too.

One of my guesses for the new album in September is Prince's full version of The Family album, with Nothing Compares 2 U as the lead single. A Prince vocal on River Run Dry would be the only truly "new" thing on it.

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Reply #14 posted 05/06/18 5:13pm

TrivialPursuit

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LeGrinde said:

One of my guesses for the new album in September is Prince's full version of The Family album, with Nothing Compares 2 U as the lead single. A Prince vocal on River Run Dry would be the only truly "new" thing on it.


That won't happen. There is no market for it. The fanbase isn't going to make the manufacturing and distribution worth it. There are at least top-40 listeners that might buy Purple Rain Deluxe.

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Reply #15 posted 05/06/18 5:13pm

imprimis

LeGrinde said:

This is a great question and one I have had for years. I'm leaing toward thinking he did record a vocal. I guess Bobby would know as well. If he "reworked" it at all, it seems likely to me--but I am just guessing too.

One of my guesses for the new album in September is Prince's full version of The Family album, with Nothing Compares 2 U as the lead single. A Prince vocal on River Run Dry would be the only truly "new" thing on it.

.

?Love has a version of 'The Screams of Passion' with a P vocal much closer to the released version, rather than the now widely circulating outtake with the falsetto in the earlier stages of the song's development (most of the basic instrumentation was present from the beginning, of course). Still awaiting a 'mature' mix of Feline, instrumental and vocal, 'You're My Love' (if indeed the Family was ever slated to record a reworked version of this). 'Body Heat' and 'Good Drawers', and an updated version of 'Rough' (reworked by P, but unlikely to have been recorded/overdubbed by StP or Susannah) are also rumoured to have been considered.

.

[Edited 5/6/18 17:25pm]

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Reply #16 posted 05/06/18 6:31pm

LeGrinde

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TrivialPursuit said:

LeGrinde said:

One of my guesses for the new album in September is Prince's full version of The Family album, with Nothing Compares 2 U as the lead single. A Prince vocal on River Run Dry would be the only truly "new" thing on it.


That won't happen. There is no market for it. The fanbase isn't going to make the manufacturing and distribution worth it. There are at least top-40 listeners that might buy Purple Rain Deluxe.

You certainly may be right. I would prefer if I'm wrong, although I would actually love to hear exactly that album, it wouldn't be my first choice either.

In the posthumous Elvis world, RCA/Sony have a small sub-label dedicated to releases for hardcore fans (usually about 3 releases per year, outtakes and soundboard concerts generally) and RCA/Sony might put out one "major" Elvis release per year aimed at a big market. I think this is a smart way to handle it and, at least somewhere down the line, I suspect something similar will be done with Prince's releases. Of course Elvis has been dead for 40 years and Prince for only 2. And Prince left behind a vault full of original material.

The first posthumous album release after Elvis died was a live double album of his last concert tour. It wasn't his last concert but it was pretty much marketed that way. But we know that won't be the next Prince album.

I get that if it was marketed as "Prince's version of an album he gave to an obscure side group called The Family" it would have no mass appeal. But "A full and cohesive Prince album recorded amidst the Purple Rain sessions featuring his earliest collaborations with Clare Fischer and Eric Leeds. Features the worldwide hit song Nothing Compares 2 U!"

I hope I am wrong and probably am --although even if I am wrong, I would be pretty happy with that album.

Like everyone else, I am hoping it is something none of us even knew existed and is mind-blowing.

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Reply #17 posted 05/06/18 6:46pm

Strive

Still don't understand why people think that Nothing Compares 2 U is related to this upcoming project. It seems like a special one off for fans.
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Reply #18 posted 05/06/18 7:38pm

TrivialPursuit

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LeGrinde said:

TrivialPursuit said:


That won't happen. There is no market for it. The fanbase isn't going to make the manufacturing and distribution worth it. There are at least top-40 listeners that might buy Purple Rain Deluxe.

You certainly may be right. I would prefer if I'm wrong, although I would actually love to hear exactly that album, it wouldn't be my first choice either.


Don't get me wrong. It'd be nice to have. But it's just not marketable. To us as P fans, it's almost logical, but from a business standpoint, you have to go with what's viable on the market to actually move units.

And as Strive said, the single was a one-off promotion on the anniversary, not a prelude of what is coming. Folks need to be thankful for stuff like that.

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Reply #19 posted 05/06/18 8:29pm

databank

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TrivialPursuit said:

LeGrinde said:

One of my guesses for the new album in September is Prince's full version of The Family album, with Nothing Compares 2 U as the lead single. A Prince vocal on River Run Dry would be the only truly "new" thing on it.


That won't happen. There is no market for it. The fanbase isn't going to make the manufacturing and distribution worth it. There are at least top-40 listeners that might buy Purple Rain Deluxe.

I really fail to see where this "there is no market for it" fantasy that's been running on the Org for years comes from, it stands alongside with Bart's "no record label in the world would agree to release Plectrumelectrum" fantasy. If there is a market for physical reissues of the most obscure releases such as Apollonia's 1988 solo album, André Cymone's original LP's or Wendy & Lisa's Fruit At The Bottom (not to mention dozens of totally forgotten funk and new wave records by totally forgotten acts that I have, that were released on CD for the first time after 30 years in limbo), there is basically a market for anything involving Prince, one of the 100 or so best selling artists of all time.

.

Now I doubt the next release is The Family. For one thing there's no such thing as a full version on the album with Prince vocals because 2 tracks are instrumentals, and obviously it would make much more sense to eventually rerelease The Family as such with the original Prince vocal versions, singles mixes, a few other outtakes like Feline and Miss Understood, etc. Not that WB and the estate are necessarily eager to make sense and provide quality products, if we're to believe what we've seen so far, though. Yet I doubt it's The Family. But my guess is as good (or bad) as anyone else's.

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Reply #20 posted 05/06/18 8:31pm

databank

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^ I'll add, as I always do, that very confidential artists such as Buckethead or John Zorn release all their records on CD, and they release an album a month or so on average. How many copies do they sell of each? 2000? 3000? Yet if there is a market for those, don't tell me there is no market for Prince.

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Reply #21 posted 05/06/18 9:41pm

TrivialPursuit

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databank said:

TrivialPursuit said:


That won't happen. There is no market for it. The fanbase isn't going to make the manufacturing and distribution worth it. There are at least top-40 listeners that might buy Purple Rain Deluxe.

I really fail to see where this "there is no market for it" fantasy that's been running on the Org for years comes from,


It's no fantasy, it's the truth. If people are talking about solely releasing Prince's version of the album, I stand by my statement. But you made me think about something, and maybe I was missing what people were saying.

There would be more market viability if they re-released The Family's original record, with the unreleased "High Fashion" extended (I have it, it's funky!) and any other b-side or possible outtake, then put Prince's versions on the 2nd disk, that would be more doable of course. Sort of how they did Xscape by Michael Jackson, artist verisons and original demos or writer's versions.

Prince's version alone - I don't see it happening. But I would of course be down for anything The Family, especially that expanded set.

And fuck Bart. lol

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Reply #22 posted 05/06/18 9:59pm

Strive

databank said:

TrivialPursuit said:


That won't happen. There is no market for it. The fanbase isn't going to make the manufacturing and distribution worth it. There are at least top-40 listeners that might buy Purple Rain Deluxe.

I really fail to see where this "there is no market for it" fantasy that's been running on the Org for years comes from, it stands alongside with Bart's "no record label in the world would agree to release Plectrumelectrum" fantasy. If there is a market for physical reissues of the most obscure releases such as Apollonia's 1988 solo album, André Cymone's original LP's or Wendy & Lisa's Fruit At The Bottom (not to mention dozens of totally forgotten funk and new wave records by totally forgotten acts that I have, that were released on CD for the first time after 30 years in limbo), there is basically a market for anything involving Prince, one of the 100 or so best selling artists of all time.

.

Now I doubt the next release is The Family. For one thing there's no such thing as a full version on the album with Prince vocals because 2 tracks are instrumentals, and obviously it would make much more sense to eventually rerelease The Family as such with the original Prince vocal versions, singles mixes, a few other outtakes like Feline and Miss Understood, etc. Not that WB and the estate are necessarily eager to make sense and provide quality products, if we're to believe what we've seen so far, though. Yet I doubt it's The Family. But my guess is as good (or bad) as anyone else's.

It really depends on the label.

Music isn't that much different than the movie business. There's movie giants with huge archives that don't release obscure movies or they license them out to niche companies for a lump sum or they only release them via MOD/VOD since there's no risk of getting stuck with unwanted inventory. There's niche companies (Criterion, Shout Factory, Synapse Films, Twilight Time, Raro Video, Vingear Syndrome, etc, etc) who's entire business is releasing tiny or obscure movies to people who are dying for that content. It's enough profit for a small company. It's not enough for a giant conglomate like Time Warner.

Bart isn't that crazy for thinking that no other major record label would agree to release Plectrumelectrum because getting into bed with Prince was agreeing to a ton of headache for a bit of prestige (look at this living legend we're working with) and a relatively small amount of sales. Even with SNL and a good amount of promotion, PE still sold under 50k. Art Offical Cage did better but it still didn't set the world on fire.

If the estate gets a big $$$ deal for his work, that company is going to want to release the big things first to recoup their money and grow the audience. Maybe there will be room for smaller releases ala Elvis/Jimi or maybe NPG will self-release niche content themselves ala Dagger Records. But I don't see Warner jumping up and down to move a couple thousand copies when there's much bigger fish to fry.

(Buckethead was mostly self-release, no label. John Zorn established his own non-profit label. Those artists also live a very modest lifestyle. They aren't living the Prince life where they spend the entire proceeds of an album on renovations for their estate in Spain lol )

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Reply #23 posted 05/07/18 4:32am

databank

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You are both making good points, however I'd say that:

TrivialPursuit said:



It's no fantasy, it's the truth. If people are talking about solely releasing Prince's version of the album, I stand by my statement.

There is simply no way there is a market for Appolonia, André, Wendy & Lisa, Martika and the likes, but none for any Prince record. Just put "Prince" on the cover and it'll get more press and sell more than any Apollonia reissue, I assure you that nod

But you made me think about something, and maybe I was missing what people were saying.
There would be more market viability if they re-released The Family's original record, with the unreleased "High Fashion" extended (I have it, it's funky!) and any other b-side or possible outtake, then put Prince's versions on the 2nd disk, that would be more doable of course. Sort of how they did Xscape by Michael Jackson, artist verisons and original demos or writer's versions.

That'd be awesome, yes. I believe side projects should be handled that way, which is why I used to say last year don't put G-Spot on PR Deluxe, save it for Jill Jones Deluxe and don't put those TT and A6 tracks on it either, save them for TT and A6 reissues.

Prince's version alone - I don't see it happening. But I would of course be down for anything The Family, especially that expanded set.

Honestly I don't see why those tracks would have less commercial potential that anything in the vault from the classic era. Fans will buy anything and the general public doesn't know Jughead from The Question Of U. The only thing with a relatively high commercial potential would be rereleases of hit albums like 1999, SOTT, D+P, Parade maybe, or Batman. But WB said they have "found something very special" so clearly that's not a remaster we're talking about. OK, maybe a live show from the 80's wuld have a certain potential, or a Montreux show, that kinda stuff. But if we're talking studio or rehearsal...

Besides, as far as the average consumer, they've never heard of The Family so those tracks would be as new and interesting to them as anything else, it would just be "a new record of previously tracks from Prince's most classic era". Honestly I don't think The Family would be anything "special" though, since all those tracks have been released and P's versions bootlegged. But I think it has as much potential for average consumers as anything else save reissues and a coupla live shows.

And fuck Bart. lol

Strive said:

It really depends on the label.

True.

Music isn't that much different than the movie business. There's movie giants with huge archives that don't release obscure movies or they license them out to niche companies for a lump sum or they only release them via MOD/VOD since there's no risk of getting stuck with unwanted inventory. There's niche companies (Criterion, Shout Factory, Synapse Films, Twilight Time, Raro Video, Vingear Syndrome, etc, etc) who's entire business is releasing tiny or obscure movies to people who are dying for that content. It's enough profit for a small company. It's not enough for a giant conglomate like Time Warner.

True, but like I said above what is there in that vault that's got charts potential anyway, save remasters of the hits albums? Them Taylor Swift fans ain't gonna trip on Wally or All My Dreams any more than on Mutiny or River Run Dry.

Bart isn't that crazy for thinking that no other major record label would agree to release Plectrumelectrum because getting into bed with Prince was agreeing to a ton of headache for a bit of prestige (look at this living legend we're working with) and a relatively small amount of sales. Even with SNL and a good amount of promotion, PE still sold under 50k. Art Offical Cage did better but it still didn't set the world on fire.

That one of the three (yep, there's only 3 left!) majors would pass on that one, OK. That a smaller label would not be able to pay the kind of advance Prince was asking, OK. But a deal was made with Kobalt and when you look at Kobalt's roster, it's mostly artists no one's ever heard of. And clearly, if a huge advance wasn't needed, there are hundreds of small labels around the world that would do anything for the visibility you get with signing one of the best selling and most famous artists of all times. Look at Purple Music: they're specialized in house music but when P offered them a cowboy song with R+RLA, they didn't think twice! Those little labels are struggling for survival, so if they can have a "release first, pay later based on sales" deal with Prince, not all but most of them will take it. It's worth taking shit from Prince afterwards, and anyway Prince won't expect a sall label to sell the way he expected WB or Arista/BMG to.

If the estate gets a big $$$ deal for his work, that company is going to want to release the big things first to recoup their money and grow the audience. Maybe there will be room for smaller releases ala Elvis/Jimi or maybe NPG will self-release niche content themselves ala Dagger Records. But I don't see Warner jumping up and down to move a couple thousand copies when there's much bigger fish to fry.

Yeah but like I said what big things are there in the vault for the average listener? Nothing save bonus tracks on a hits album remaster. Maybe P's versions of a few hits like NC2U, Manic Monday, Sugar Walls? As for the rest, they won't really know the difference between The Flesh and Milk & Honey.

(Buckethead was mostly self-release, no label. John Zorn established his own non-profit label. Those artists also live a very modest lifestyle. They aren't living the Prince life where they spend the entire proceeds of an album on renovations for their estate in Spain lol )

Totally true, but Prince would also release things directly on the internet, or through micro-labels, he did both on numerous occasions after 2000. He clearly made his millions with the live shows, not record sales anymore, he said it himself in one of his latest interviews. Most artists can say the same in 2018. But yes, clearly Prince's financial needs weren't those of Buckethead or Zorn, I'll grant you that. Nevertheless, we are now talking about his siblings, not him.

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Reply #24 posted 05/07/18 6:59am

Strive

Did Prince actually release anything with Kobalt?


Yeah but like I said what big things are there in the vault for the average listener? Nothing save bonus tracks on a hits album remaster. Maybe P's versions of a few hits like NC2U, Manic Monday, Sugar Walls? As for the rest, they won't really know the difference between The Flesh and Milk & Honey.



There's plenty of stuff in the vault that could register with the average listener. Minneapolis Funk is having a revival. They may not know the material today but there's no reason that something like Do Yourself A Favor or Come Elektra Tuesday or Extraloveable (with a fade before the rape part) couldn't be a single for a new collection. And songs like that would have a much better chance of making an impact outside of his current fans than projects like The Family w/ Prince vocals or Milk & Honey or Playtime.



Honestly I don't see why those tracks would have less commercial potential that anything in the vault from the classic era. Fans will buy anything and the general public doesn't know Jughead from The Question Of U. The only thing with a relatively high commercial potential would be rereleases of hit albums like 1999, SOTT, D+P, Parade maybe, or Batman. But WB said they have "found something very special" so clearly that's not a remaster we're talking about.


There's commerical potential for The Family w/ Prince vocals but you'd really have to educate the public about A) what The Family was B) why they should care about that project. Saying it's a secret gem from 84 holds no weight since the average listener has no idea when Purple Rain came out or when Prince's most prolific period was.

Like look at the promo that took place with Brian Wilson's Smile. He did the Pet Sounds revival which was pushed as one of the greatest albums ever released. Then they started laying the groundwork for Smile. It's an album that had even more potential than Pet Sounds, a project that ended up crushing Brian Wilson, a lost gem that became the most bootlegged/speculated album in history...and now he's completing it. Here's a documentary explaining how important it is. Here's all these critics fawning over the potential of it. Here's Good Vibrations, The Beach Boys' hit that everybody knows and loves with the original lyrics.

The estate is going to have to pick and choose their spots very carefully if they want to make Prince a Jimi Hendrix/Elvis type of star in death. He's a legend but they have to hammer that fact into the brain of the public. I'm sure that's why they were shopping the full First Avenue 83 show along with the rights/ability to make a documentary out of the rehearsal footage instead of allowing its release with Purple Rain Deluxe (well, that & $$$)

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Reply #25 posted 05/07/18 7:21am

databank

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Strive said:

Did Prince actually release anything with Kobalt?

Yes, a single or 2.

There's plenty of stuff in the vault that could register with the average listener. Minneapolis Funk is having a revival. They may not know the material today but there's no reason that something like Do Yourself A Favor or Come Elektra Tuesday or Extraloveable (with a fade before the rape part) couldn't be a single for a new collection. And songs like that would have a much better chance of making an impact outside of his current fans than projects like The Family w/ Prince vocals or Milk & Honey or Playtime.

I don't know what you mean by "single" because it doesn't mean what it used to. If you mean a track released in advance of YT and Spotify to promote, OK. If you mean a commercial song that's intended to chart between Kanie West and Taylor Swift, there's no way in HELL any of those old songs from the vault would appeal to the average listener, let alone if they're less than 40 y.o. Come Elektra Tuesday is in a demosih state that makes it awfully dated. The original Extraloveable is a totally unlistenable mess for most people except the most hardcore electrofunk fans. Singles? lol lol lol No way, not unless they're completely remixed by Justin Timberlake, which is what we do not want.


There's commerical potential for The Family w/ Prince vocals but you'd really have to educate the public about A) what The Family was B) why they should care about that project. Saying it's a secret gem from 84 holds no weight since the average listener has no idea when Purple Rain came out or when Prince's most prolific period was.

How is that different with Do YS A Favor, CET or Extraloveable? I realize you love those songs, I do too. But they're totally uninteresting for anyone who isn't already into Prince and/or electrofunk.


Like look at the promo that took place with Brian Wilson's Smile. He did the Pet Sounds revival which was pushed as one of the greatest albums ever released. Then they started laying the groundwork for Smile. It's an album that had even more potential than Pet Sounds, a project that ended up crushing Brian Wilson, a lost gem that became the most bootlegged/speculated album in history...and now he's completing it. Here's a documentary explaining how important it is. Here's all these critics fawning over the potential of it. Here's Good Vibrations, The Beach Boys' hit that everybody knows and loves with the original lyrics.

The big thing here is that the dude was alive and toured the project. Prince could have done a "The Flesh Revival Tour" or a "Dream Factory Reloaded" project or something like this, but now...

The estate is going to have to pick and choose their spots very carefully if they want to make Prince a Jimi Hendrix/Elvis type of star in death. He's a legend but they have to hammer that fact into the brain of the public. I'm sure that's why they were shopping the full First Avenue 83 show along with the rights/ability to make a documentary out of the rehearsal footage instead of allowing its release with Purple Rain Deluxe (well, that & $$$)

To be honest I'm no specialist in legacy acts but there can be no comparison with anyone that came before because no one left a vault with enough material to release an album a month (live, studio and rehearsals) for a century.

I think in the end the estate would just have to please 3 kinds of people:

- The Prince fans

- The music press critics

- True music afficonados with an interest in music history

Do that and you generate a hype. Generate a hype and people will believe the hype. And you get casual folks to give it a try, because everyone says this dude was a genius and his vault is awesome.

To please those three crowds I think the rule is: don't release shitty, hastily made compilations, mix and master the stuff properly, pick and choose carefully but not with the hope of getting a hit single because there won't be any such thing, put it all in context with proper liner notes or in-depth interviews with curators and engineers. Don't get me wrong: this is all much SIMPLIER said that done, and I would be terrified if I was the guy in charge. But respecting the material is they key, because you won't sell it to the kids the way you sold them Bob or Jimi 25 years ago.

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Reply #26 posted 05/07/18 8:37am

Strive

I don't know what you mean by "single" because it doesn't mean what it used to. If you mean a track released in advance of YT and Spotify to promote, OK. If you mean a commercial song that's intended to chart between Kanie West and Taylor Swift, there's no way in HELL any of those old songs from the vault would appeal to the average listener, let alone if they're less than 40 y.o. Come Elektra Tuesday is in a demosih state that makes it awfully dated. The original Extraloveable is a totally unlistenable mess for most people except the most hardcore electrofunk fans. Singles? icon_lol.gif icon_lol.gif icon_lol.gif No way, not unless they're completely remixed by Justin Timberlake, which is what we do not want.


Moonbeam Levels was the single for 4Ever. Electric Intercourse (Studio), Our Destiny/Roadhouse Garden and Father's Song were the singles for Purple Rain Deluxe.

.

This new collection needs something catchy out front that can draw people in. It's not a hits collection like 4Ever or a b-side to a beloved album. It has to stand on its own. The music industry isn't exactly on fire so if AOE/PE can debut #5/#8 on the Billboard 200, there's no reason this collection can't do the same. Nothing they release by Prince is going to make Top 40 radio but that isn't the point. This is legacy building. Warner and the estate are trying to stoke the fire for future Prince releases.

.

(Also the original Extralovable is "a totally unlistenable mess for most people"? princedirtylook.gif)


To be honest I'm no specialist in legacy acts but there can be no comparison with anyone that came before because no one left a vault with enough material to release an album a month (live, studio and rehearsals) for a century. (...) But respecting the material is they key, because you won't sell it to the kids the way you sold them Bob or Jimi 25 years ago.


Why couldn't you sell Prince the same way Jimi or The Doors were sold to a new generation of fans? What's the giant wall preventing Bruno Mars fans from becoming Prince fans?

.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that even though his catalog/vault is massive, the approach to marketing and packaging his work isn't that different than any other legendary artist.

Dagger Records launched but it was only launched after MCA released First Rays Of The Rising Sun. This collection needs to be the Prince version of that and its success will help lay the groundwork for other niche releases. Either through a traditional record label or through the estate ala Experience Hendrix's Dagger Records or a mix of both.

Attempting to lead with The Family w/ Prince vocals after you release the main single months before the album release is a bad, bad idea.

[Edited 5/7/18 8:42am]

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Reply #27 posted 05/07/18 10:11am

databank

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Strive said:

I don't know what you mean by "single" because it doesn't mean what it used to. If you mean a track released in advance of YT and Spotify to promote, OK. If you mean a commercial song that's intended to chart between Kanie West and Taylor Swift, there's no way in HELL any of those old songs from the vault would appeal to the average listener, let alone if they're less than 40 y.o. Come Elektra Tuesday is in a demosih state that makes it awfully dated. The original Extraloveable is a totally unlistenable mess for most people except the most hardcore electrofunk fans. Singles? icon_lol.gif icon_lol.gif icon_lol.gif No way, not unless they're completely remixed by Justin Timberlake, which is what we do not want.


Moonbeam Levels was the single for 4Ever. Electric Intercourse (Studio), Our Destiny/Roadhouse Garden and Father's Song were the singles for Purple Rain Deluxe.

.

This new collection needs something catchy out front that can draw people in. It's not a hits collection like 4Ever or a b-side to a beloved album. It has to stand on its own. The music industry isn't exactly on fire so if AOE/PE can debut #5/#8 on the Billboard 200, there's no reason this collection can't do the same. Nothing they release by Prince is going to make Top 40 radio but that isn't the point. This is legacy building. Warner and the estate are trying to stoke the fire for future Prince releases.

.

(Also the original Extralovable is "a totally unlistenable mess for most people"? princedirtylook.gif)


To be honest I'm no specialist in legacy acts but there can be no comparison with anyone that came before because no one left a vault with enough material to release an album a month (live, studio and rehearsals) for a century. (...) But respecting the material is they key, because you won't sell it to the kids the way you sold them Bob or Jimi 25 years ago.


Why couldn't you sell Prince the same way Jimi or The Doors were sold to a new generation of fans? What's the giant wall preventing Bruno Mars fans from becoming Prince fans?

.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that even though his catalog/vault is massive, the approach to marketing and packaging his work isn't that different than any other legendary artist.

Dagger Records launched but it was only launched after MCA released First Rays Of The Rising Sun. This collection needs to be the Prince version of that and its success will help lay the groundwork for other niche releases. Either through a traditional record label or through the estate ala Experience Hendrix's Dagger Records or a mix of both.

Attempting to lead with The Family w/ Prince vocals after you release the main single months before the album release is a bad, bad idea.

[Edited 5/7/18 8:42am]

Fair enuff. I'd forgotten that recent records charted pretty well all things considered. I'm not sure who bought those records though, because I don't know too many people even my age who still buy their music, let alone younger people. It's very possible the majority of AOA purchasers were over 45 (with a much greater amount of people who enjoyed the music, but either downloaded it for free or streamed it on Spotify or Deezer). I'm 41, and I don't know anyone who buys digital music or CD's anymore. Some buy vinyls because it helps them getting laid. That's about it.

.

I'm certainly not advocating the Estate releasing The Family next September, I don't think it'd make much sense, but I don't think either that those singles had any impact whatsoever on sales or the hype: IMHO they could have put out any song from the PR Deluxe outtakes CD, it'd have been the same, because those who were listening were those who were already interested, and they wouldn't have purchased PR Deluxe any more or less if Velvet Kitty Cat had been out instead of Father's Song.

.

As for the Bruno Mars wall I c your point but I fear times have changed. In my days (the early 90's), teenagers my age who were seriously into music were many to be fans of 70's or early 80's acts. There was of course a strong interest for contemporary music as well, but many kids were into 70's music, there was a sort of idealization of the late 60's to very early 80's era. It had to do with sociological factors, a certain fascination for both the hippie and punk movements, the ideals of the first, the disapopointment of the second, this dichotomy forged our identity for the most part. Music also symbolized a rebellion against our parents' and grandparents' generations, and people such as Hendrix, Marley, Morrison, The Clash, The Sex Pistols, Bowie, Pink Floyd and so on were an incarnation of this, they symbolized this first generation of forefathers of rebellion. Prince and Madonna cashed a lot on this, actually, because they were sort of the next wave. And finally grunge, brit pop, hip-hop, trip-hop, techno and other electronic music were the last. A decade later electroclash, for all its rebellion and provocation, was in fact a celebration of the final victory of the sexual revolution established as a dominbant system, and a last slap to the face of conservatives, not an act of rebellion searching any further social progress. I've often read that Kurt Cobain was the last prophet and things in that tone.

.

IDK how people under 30 perceive older acts today. My impression from those I've met is that music isn't so much a symbol of rebellion to them because anyway, there remains very little to rebel against 50 years after the Summer of Love: the work's been done, kids don't need to define themselves in reaction to a perceived archaic and oppressive immediate past (and all the better for it). IDK, maybe I'm wrong but they don't seem so angry nor so idealistic, those kids, they're more ground to earth than we ever were. So to come back to the original topic my perception is that the wall that separates them from being Prince fans is that either they like the music or not, but Prince may not be a strong incarnation of an idea for a great number of them, the way those earlier icons were for us. And maybe Prince's golden age is already a little too old anyway: Dirty Mind was released 38 years ago, Lovesexy was released 30 years ago. Back in '93 we didn't care much about music from 1955 to 1963. Elvis and Little Richard were Egyptian mummies to us. Hell, even the Beatles were already a little too old by that point.

.

So I ain't saying there's no audience, far from it. A lots of kids today who release their first records are incredibly influenced by early 80's music, I'm actually surprised to see that the 80's have been back in fashion for a good 15 years, while the 70's didn't enjoy such a long revival in the 90's. Surprised but delighted. So obviously there will be people who simply like the music. But those people may not be as many as they used to be, because I don't think Prince (or his contemporaries) symbolize anything important to them in terms of a generation and a sociological aspect. There will be an audience: people who are curious about music history and good music, mostly educated and sophisticated people from metropolitran areas.

.

Now maybe I'm completely wrong. I do not claim that my analysis is totally accurate, and it lacks sufficient data to claim any such thing. Just a feeling. But I think it doesn't really matter what they do as long as Prince remains hype, and Prince will remain hype no matter what, same as Bowie, and sophisticated people as well as nostalgic ones will listen to their shit for at least another few decades. But those Bruno Mars kids? IDK. I don't think so. They don't even know who Nile Rogers or James Brown were, most of them.

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Reply #28 posted 05/08/18 7:44am

databank

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Oh, and how could I possibly forget:

.

Strive said:

Extraloveable (with a fade before the rape part)

.

Don't u encourage them to butcher Prince's work!

I'm upset enough as it is with the fanmade OD/RG on PR Deluxe and the NC2U fanmade edit they've released mad mad mad mad

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Reply #29 posted 05/09/18 12:43am

JorisE73

databank said:

Oh, and how could I possibly forget:

.

Strive said:

Extraloveable (with a fade before the rape part)

.

Don't u encourage them to butcher Prince's work!

I'm upset enough as it is with the fanmade OD/RG on PR Deluxe and the NC2U fanmade edit they've released mad mad mad mad


I suspected the NC2U release to be a current 'remixed' version with Prince's vocals replacing St. Paul's, but are you confirming here that's true?
I heard from "Scary Face Guy" on a.mp. way back when (I guess you know who I mean) here that the only full (known then at least) 'Prince' version doens't have Susannah (not sure) and Paul's backing vocals and now with this new released version I think then they added those or replaced Paul's vocals with Prince's to 'complete' it. If that is the case than we are fucked regarding non tampered with music from the vault becuase to me that means they are full willing to add raps by some current artist or make one of those horrible duets just to make money.

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