independent and unofficial
Prince fan community site
Tue 25th Jun 2019 6:48pm
Welcome! Sign up or enter username and password to remember me
Forum jump
Forums > Prince: Music and More > Muses v Collaborators
« Previous topic  Next topic »
  New topic   Printable     (Log in to 'subscribe' to this topic)
Author

Tweet     Share

Message
Thread started 07/15/16 9:39am

PurpleBabied

Muses v Collaborators

Who is your favorite Prince muse? Who is your favorite close collaborator? Is there anyone who is both and a favorite?

I didn't see any threads on this so here goes:

To me, if a woman was a primarily a muse, they inspired a lot of songs/projects. However their protege projects and other artistic input was weak and not as memorable. If someone was mostly a close collaborator, they didn't inspire so many songs about them, but those songs (if any) were stronger.

Now I'm just talking about women, but AFAIK, Prince didn't have male muses as such?

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #1 posted 07/15/16 9:55am

loveandkindnes
s

I don't recall any muses other than women but he did refer to sly, Rick James, James brown oh and Hendrix ....his muse was God Jehovah, truly his music became more focused on his spiritually as his muse. As far as myself I don't have a muse at this time, I'm a silversmith so my muse becomes the client and the gems I use.
Loveandkindness
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #2 posted 07/15/16 11:54am

PurpleBabied

loveandkindness said:

loveandkindness said:
I don't recall any muses other than women but he did refer to sly, Rick James, James brown oh and Hendrix ....his muse was God Jehovah, truly his music became more focused on his spiritually as his muse. As far as myself I don't have a muse at this time, I'm a silversmith so my muse becomes the client and the gems I use.

To me, a muse is a person that is often the subject of works of art or a sounding board or a channel. So to me Rick James, James Brown and Hendrix are influences, not muses because he wasn't writing songs about them or wanting to be them (although he did imitate parts of their personae and musical flourishes).

In general, muse songs about God tend to personify God.

Maybe there are some Song of Solomon inspired songs in the fabled vault?

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #3 posted 07/15/16 3:37pm

PeteSilas

i don't think i've ever heard of a muse being referred to as a male. What i know about Muses is that they were female goddesses/spirits who were the source of musical creativity. the only thing men make one want to do is compete and be better, not the same thing.

Prince.org: With fans like these he didn't need haters.
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #4 posted 07/15/16 3:47pm

PurpleBabied

PeteSilas said:

i don't think i've ever heard of a muse being referred to as a male. What i know about Muses is that they were female goddesses/spirits who were the source of musical creativity. the only thing men make one want to do is compete and be better, not the same thing.

Hence the adjective in front of muse. The classic Greek muses were all women (not confined to music but the arts, in general). </pedant>

And maybe that last statement only applies if you're a heterosexual dude? I'm sure there are women artists or gay artists who feel inspired by men as muses?

Take a read of some devotional hymns or poetry from other traditions: it's very much not confined to women as objects of inspiration.

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #5 posted 07/15/16 3:58pm

laytonian

.

Damaris referred to herself as "his muse" and said their relationship wasn't romantic.

I'm starting to think that P had women lined up in hierarchal roles :0
Muses
Collaborators
Employees

Relationships in several styles

.

Welcome to "the org", laytonian… come bathe with me.
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #6 posted 07/15/16 4:01pm

PeteSilas

oh sure, i'm sure the gay guys like the rumored gay, Neil Diamond, really was in love with a "Harry Harry" more like than a "sherry, sherry" but by and large I believe the concept was always female traditionally. My point is that men like Prince, Elvis, or whoever, even gay guys, are competitive with each other. Look at Little Richard, he tried to get chuck berry into bed but he still fought over who was the King. Just part of being men, being competitive. Mccartney and Lennon had what their producer called a healthy rivalry. I guess if you can call two guys who took potshots each other throughout the trials and tragedies and even after the deaths of one of them, "healthy" it was healthy. I think he meant moreso how one would write one great song and the other would try to outdo him. In the end however, i don't think it was that healthy as most competition really isn't that healthy.

Prince.org: With fans like these he didn't need haters.
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #7 posted 07/15/16 4:20pm

CROWNS1

with Prince I think muses and collaboraters meshed, since he was obviously inspired by creative women.

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #8 posted 07/15/16 4:45pm

PurpleBabied

PeteSilas said:

oh sure, i'm sure the gay guys like the rumored gay, Neil Diamond, really was in love with a "Harry Harry" more like than a "sherry, sherry" but by and large I believe the concept was always female traditionally. My point is that men like Prince, Elvis, or whoever, even gay guys, are competitive with each other. Look at Little Richard, he tried to get chuck berry into bed but he still fought over who was the King. Just part of being men, being competitive. Mccartney and Lennon had what their producer called a healthy rivalry. I guess if you can call two guys who took potshots each other throughout the trials and tragedies and even after the deaths of one of them, "healthy" it was healthy. I think he meant moreso how one would write one great song and the other would try to outdo him. In the end however, i don't think it was that healthy as most competition really isn't that healthy.

Ok, but what makes you think that women and men aren't competitive with each other? Or even women with other women? smile

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #9 posted 07/15/16 4:49pm

avajane

PeteSilas said:

i don't think i've ever heard of a muse being referred to as a male. What i know about Muses is that they were female goddesses/spirits who were the source of musical creativity. the only thing men make one want to do is compete and be better, not the same thing.


How about female singer-songwriters who write about the men in their lives, among other topics? Then again, I don't credit the muse for the work they supposedly inspire, it is the person creating the work that felt inspired by someone or something, it is their projection of what they feel.
Love is God,
God is Love
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #10 posted 07/15/16 4:55pm

roxy831

avatar

As a songwriter, I have to say that there are many different types of 'muses.' I've been 'mused' by God, I've been 'mused' by attraction, I've been even 'mused' by tragedy...Beauty (muses) are in the eye of the beholder...

Welcome home class. We've come a long way. - RIP Prince
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #11 posted 07/15/16 6:08pm

PeteSilas

PurpleBabied said:

PeteSilas said:

oh sure, i'm sure the gay guys like the rumored gay, Neil Diamond, really was in love with a "Harry Harry" more like than a "sherry, sherry" but by and large I believe the concept was always female traditionally. My point is that men like Prince, Elvis, or whoever, even gay guys, are competitive with each other. Look at Little Richard, he tried to get chuck berry into bed but he still fought over who was the King. Just part of being men, being competitive. Mccartney and Lennon had what their producer called a healthy rivalry. I guess if you can call two guys who took potshots each other throughout the trials and tragedies and even after the deaths of one of them, "healthy" it was healthy. I think he meant moreso how one would write one great song and the other would try to outdo him. In the end however, i don't think it was that healthy as most competition really isn't that healthy.

Ok, but what makes you think that women and men aren't competitive with each other? Or even women with other women? smile

of course they can be competitive, i'm speaking in generalities here. rock music is generally a boy's club. we know that Prince was competitive with the members of the time, we also know that he generally favored female proteges after that period, he did that for a reason. However, even with the women there were issues. I've read that he blocked Ingrid Chavez' album because he thought "it would change music". and he didn't do Jill jones any favors either. What i'm saying is men generally see other men as threats, that has a lot to do with why some jobs are more typically female, office jobs are harder for men to get. again a generality, not a blanket statement. Anyway, a man may inspire a man in a totally different way than a woman would. Jerry Lee Lewis thought he was greater than Elvis and went out to prove it. that is not the same as being in love and writing a love song.

Prince.org: With fans like these he didn't need haters.
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #12 posted 07/15/16 6:10pm

PeteSilas

avajane said:

PeteSilas said:

i don't think i've ever heard of a muse being referred to as a male. What i know about Muses is that they were female goddesses/spirits who were the source of musical creativity. the only thing men make one want to do is compete and be better, not the same thing.

How about female singer-songwriters who write about the men in their lives, among other topics? Then again, I don't credit the muse for the work they supposedly inspire, it is the person creating the work that felt inspired by someone or something, it is their projection of what they feel.

sure, i guess it could be called the same thing, same function and meaning. I don't think, now you'd have to look it up, that the term was ever applied to men. the "muses" were feminine spirits, I don't think they ever had male spirits in art or anything else. I don't think I've ever heard that term used for a male in fact, if you have i'll concede.

Prince.org: With fans like these he didn't need haters.
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #13 posted 07/15/16 7:30pm

PurpleBabied

CROWNS1 said:

with Prince I think muses and collaboraters meshed, since he was obviously inspired by creative women.

Yes that's part of my contention.

There were women who were both muses and collaborators (Mayte) just muses (Susannah), and just colloborators (Wendy & Lisa). My contention is that some women who were both muses and collaborators were more one

than the other. Women who were mostly muses (Mayte, Carmen Electra) tended to have weak colloborations. Women who were mostly collaborators didn't have a lot of songs written about them but their actual projects were stronger(Sheila E).

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #14 posted 07/15/16 7:35pm

PurpleBabied

PeteSilas said:

PurpleBabied said:

Ok, but what makes you think that women and men aren't competitive with each other? Or even women with other women? smile

of course they can be competitive, i'm speaking in generalities here. rock music is generally a boy's club. we know that Prince was competitive with the members of the time, we also know that he generally favored female proteges after that period, he did that for a reason. However, even with the women there were issues. I've read that he blocked Ingrid Chavez' album because he thought "it would change music". and he didn't do Jill jones any favors either. What i'm saying is men generally see other men as threats, that has a lot to do with why some jobs are more typically female, office jobs are harder for men to get. again a generality, not a blanket statement. Anyway, a man may inspire a man in a totally different way than a woman would. Jerry Lee Lewis thought he was greater than Elvis and went out to prove it. that is not the same as being in love and writing a love song.

What particular thing did he do to throttle Jill Jones' projects? From what you're saying in this post it sounds like he viewed the women he colloborated with as more as more of an artistic threat than the men. That doesn't sound like "men are more competitive with other men than women."

The whole "muses are female" might be a deliberate refusal to recognize women as creative in their own right.

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #15 posted 07/15/16 11:37pm

PeteSilas

Here is the definition i found online, maybe you can check a websters too:

muse1
myo͞oz/
noun
plural noun: Muses
  1. (in Greek and Roman mythology) each of nine goddesses, the daughters of Zeus and Mnemosyne, who preside over the arts and sciences.
    synonyms: inspiration, creative influence, stimulus;
    formalafflatus
    "the poet's muse"
    • a woman, or a force personified as a woman, who is the source of inspiration for a creative artist.
      noun: muse; plural noun: muses
      synonyms: inspiration, creative influence, stimulus;
      formalafflatus
      "the poet's muse"
Origin
late Middle English: from Old French, or from Latin musa, from Greek mousa .
muse2
myo͞oz/
verb
3rd person present: muses
  1. 1.
    be absorbed in thought.
    "he was musing on the problems he faced"
    synonyms:
Prince.org: With fans like these he didn't need haters.
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #16 posted 07/15/16 11:48pm

PeteSilas

PurpleBabied said:

PeteSilas said:

of course they can be competitive, i'm speaking in generalities here. rock music is generally a boy's club. we know that Prince was competitive with the members of the time, we also know that he generally favored female proteges after that period, he did that for a reason. However, even with the women there were issues. I've read that he blocked Ingrid Chavez' album because he thought "it would change music". and he didn't do Jill jones any favors either. What i'm saying is men generally see other men as threats, that has a lot to do with why some jobs are more typically female, office jobs are harder for men to get. again a generality, not a blanket statement. Anyway, a man may inspire a man in a totally different way than a woman would. Jerry Lee Lewis thought he was greater than Elvis and went out to prove it. that is not the same as being in love and writing a love song.

What particular thing did he do to throttle Jill Jones' projects? From what you're saying in this post it sounds like he viewed the women he colloborated with as more as more of an artistic threat than the men. That doesn't sound like "men are more competitive with other men than women."

The whole "muses are female" might be a deliberate refusal to recognize women as creative in their own right.

From what I understand, and have read on here too, Jill was not happy with her contract, wanted out and Prince kept her locked in for the full term just out of spite. I have read that he was just very competitive by nature, even with women. However, it appears that he never really did support a male protege again after the Time/Family. He worked with many women on various projects, most of them were just a waste of PP's resources. To my knowledge, he never again took on adult male artists as proteges, he had George Clinton on his label for a minute but he seems to have favored working with women, women engineers, women musicians. This dynamic is hardly uncommon, in the workworld, the good old boys love to be surrounded and catered to by women, it's changing but men have a different mindset when it comes to other men. Jim Brown once called it simply how every man looks at every man and thinks "I can kick your ass" either metaphorically or literally, that's just the way it is. Men tend to see each other as threats and women as booty. Threats are to be eliminated or neutered and the booty is to be objectified and controlled.

Prince.org: With fans like these he didn't need haters.
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #17 posted 07/16/16 8:55am

PurpleBabied

PeteSilas said:

Here is the definition i found online, maybe you can check a websters too:

muse1
myo͞oz/
noun
plural noun: Muses
  1. (in Greek and Roman mythology) each of nine goddesses, the daughters of Zeus and Mnemosyne, who preside over the arts and sciences.
    synonyms: inspiration, creative influence, stimulus;
    formalafflatus
    "the poet's muse"
    • a woman, or a force personified as a woman, who is the source of inspiration for a creative artist.
      noun: muse; plural noun: muses
      synonyms: inspiration, creative influence, stimulus;
      formalafflatus
      "the poet's muse"
Origin
late Middle English: from Old French, or from Latin musa, from Greek mousa .
muse2
myo͞oz/
verb
3rd person present: muses
  1. 1.
    be absorbed in thought.
    "he was musing on the problems he faced"
    synonyms:

Dude, I understand how to use a dictionary and I was a Greek mythology nerd from childhood so I'm well aware of Terpsichore .

I disagree with the idea that men can never be muses. It may not be common, but it happens.

Perhaps being a muse is like having your creativity sucked out of you and coopted which doesn't happen as often with men?

There's something vampiric about being a muse.

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #18 posted 07/16/16 10:07am

sblr99

PurpleBabied said:

Who is your favorite Prince muse? Who is your favorite close collaborator? Is there anyone who is both and a favorite?

I didn't see any threads on this so here goes:

To me, if a woman was a primarily a muse, they inspired a lot of songs/projects. However their protege projects and other artistic input was weak and not as memorable. If someone was mostly a close collaborator, they didn't inspire so many songs about them, but those songs (if any) were stronger.

Now I'm just talking about women, but AFAIK, Prince didn't have male muses as such?

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #19 posted 07/16/16 10:26am

sblr99

PurpleBabied said:

Who is your favorite Prince muse? Who is your favorite close collaborator? Is there anyone who is both and a favorite?

From my observation of Prince, as a longtime fam, women in general were his 'muse' ... there is Mayte, of course, as probably his most powerful 'muse' because of obvious reasons but I can point to many examples in songs or statements made by him or stories told throughout his career..

One of his early muses Susie from Vanity 6 inspired the track Private Joy from the Controversy LP, whom he would do Elvis impressions of, to make Susie laugh. If you listen to that track you can hear Prince singing in that sort of Elvis way ...that hiccup thing he would do when singing...

Shelia E. of course who carried on a life long relationship with him... she more than any other of his romantic female muses, is probably the female muse that inspired him more on the music side than strictly as a sexual muse.

Vanity of course, whom Prince said was a female version of himself...

I could go on and on... Prince once said in an interview, which I'm trying to find is that the reason he sings falsetto so much is that he was trying to sound like a woman because he loved female singers first and foremost, one example being Joni Mitchell...

As far as I know Muses, particularly for alpha males, which Prince was, are always female. Males are more influences or inspiration, for example Larry Graham played a profound role as a mentor for Prince in his later years and was instrumental in bringing him to the Jehovah Witnesses ...

As far as male musical influences, he was influenced by many different artists and genres, but he model himself heavily after James Brown.

That's my 6 cents.

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #20 posted 07/16/16 3:51pm

destinyc1

sblr99 said:

PurpleBabied said:

Who is your favorite Prince muse? Who is your favorite close collaborator? Is there anyone who is both and a favorite?

From my observation of Prince, as a longtime fam, women in general were his 'muse' ... there is Mayte, of course, as probably his most powerful 'muse' because of obvious reasons but I can point to many examples in songs or statements made by him or stories told throughout his career..

One of his early muses Susie from Vanity 6 inspired the track Private Joy from the Controversy LP, whom he would do Elvis impressions of, to make Susie laugh. If you listen to that track you can hear Prince singing in that sort of Elvis way ...that hiccup thing he would do when singing...

Shelia E. of course who carried on a life long relationship with him... she more than any other of his romantic female muses, is probably the female muse that inspired him more on the music side than strictly as a sexual muse.

Vanity of course, whom Prince said was a female version of himself...

I could go on and on... Prince once said in an interview, which I'm trying to find is that the reason he sings falsetto so much is that he was trying to sound like a woman because he loved female singers first and foremost, one example being Joni Mitchell...

As far as I know Muses, particularly for alpha males, which Prince was, are always female. Males are more influences or inspiration, for example Larry Graham played a profound role as a mentor for Prince in his later years and was instrumental in bringing him to the Jehovah Witnesses ...

As far as male musical influences, he was influenced by many different artists and genres, but he model himself heavily after James Brown.

That's my 6 cents.

Miles Davis and George Clinton .....Did you see the induction into the hall of fame for the funkadelics? Prince was all gitty in his speech about them.

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #21 posted 07/16/16 3:54pm

destinyc1

destinyc1 said:

sblr99 said:

Miles Davis and George Clinton .....Did you see the induction into the hall of fame for the funkadelics? Prince was all gitty in his speech about them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbS2dIADcsg

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #22 posted 07/16/16 5:39pm

PeteSilas

PurpleBabied said:

PeteSilas said:

Here is the definition i found online, maybe you can check a websters too:

muse1
myo͞oz/
noun
plural noun: Muses
  1. (in Greek and Roman mythology) each of nine goddesses, the daughters of Zeus and Mnemosyne, who preside over the arts and sciences.
    synonyms: inspiration, creative influence, stimulus;
    formalafflatus
    "the poet's muse"
    • a woman, or a force personified as a woman, who is the source of inspiration for a creative artist.
      noun: muse; plural noun: muses
      synonyms: inspiration, creative influence, stimulus;
      formalafflatus
      "the poet's muse"
Origin
late Middle English: from Old French, or from Latin musa, from Greek mousa .
muse2
myo͞oz/
verb
3rd person present: muses
  1. 1.
    be absorbed in thought.
    "he was musing on the problems he faced"
    synonyms:

Dude, I understand how to use a dictionary and I was a Greek mythology nerd from childhood so I'm well aware of Terpsichore .

I disagree with the idea that men can never be muses. It may not be common, but it happens.

Perhaps being a muse is like having your creativity sucked out of you and coopted which doesn't happen as often with men?

There's something vampiric about being a muse.

if you already know, stop making a stink in here.

Prince.org: With fans like these he didn't need haters.
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #23 posted 07/16/16 6:09pm

PurpleBabied

destinyc1 said:

destinyc1 said:

Miles Davis and George Clinton .....Did you see the induction into the hall of fame for the funkadelics? Prince was all gitty in his speech about them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbS2dIADcsg

Thanks for the link destinyc1!

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
  New topic   Printable     (Log in to 'subscribe' to this topic)
« Previous topic  Next topic »
Forums > Prince: Music and More > Muses v Collaborators