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Reply #240 posted 06/02/16 3:55pm

leadline

avatar

Fury said:

destinyc1 said:

YES...And many of us on here kept saying he looked bad and thin.

A male 5'3" and 112 pounds would have had a NORMAL BMI Your BMI is 19.8 (Normal


Yep, 110-120 was probably his weight since the late 70's.

"You always get the dream that you deserve, from what you value the most" -Prince 2013
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Reply #241 posted 06/02/16 3:57pm

jesme1999

nursev said:

Dibblekins said:

I just wanted to chip in re Fentanyl.



I live in the UK, where doctors are paid salaries by government (NHS) not 'by the prescription', if that makes sense.



I run a women's health organisation where members are often in chronic, agonising pain for all sorts of conditions - not necessarily cancer or anything terminal. Many of them are given Fentanyl patches for slow-release pain management, along with pills of various sorts for break-through pain - so, no, it's not unusual for patients with complex and severe pain conditions to have both patches AND pills.



In addition, fentanyl isn't limited to patches - it can also be used in the form of lozenges, injections, and nasal sprays. The latter forms tend to be for relatively instantaneous pain-relief as opposed to the slow-release patch. I don't think we've been told how Prince 'self-administered' his...

[Edited 6/2/16 15:05pm]



glad to know...never seen any other form but patches.


Me either ...i can assure you my ex is not
In severe pain ... Hes just addicted to opiates .
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Reply #242 posted 06/02/16 4:02pm

jesme1999

CROWNS1 said:



nursev said:


cindyt said:


how do you think he got it? anybody? he should have been committed to a psychiatric hospital...I am right about that nursev right...or an addiction center...shouldn't have been a choice...right? he was way too far gone for him to be running around alone with narcotics? also, you all realize the effects on breathing, heart from this stuff?



I work in detox and if Prince was in the state I think he was in he should've been in an acute care facility...a damn hospital!


This. As well as having a child addicted to opiates, I also work in the MH/Substance abuse field. Fentanyl is more powerful than heroin...there is no way he could have come off of them by himself. I'm leaning towards believing that Dr. Schulenberg didn't prescribe it, but I believe his part in this and perhaps what could get him in trouble is that he attempted to help Prince wean off of opiates outside of a detox facility, which was a recipe for disaster. Being off of the meds for days and then taking it can cause an overdose and this doctor should not have been a part of a do it yourself detox. My opinion only.


[Edited 6/2/16 15:24pm]


[Edited 6/2/16 15:24pm]

[Edited 6/2/16 15:25pm]




Given what we know at this point i have
To agree !
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Reply #243 posted 06/02/16 4:02pm

Adorecream

leadline said:

Fury said:

destinyc1 said: A male 5'3" and 112 pounds would have had a NORMAL BMI Your BMI is 19.8 (Normal


Yep, 110-120 was probably his weight since the late 70's.

Actually it is underweight, Normal BMI starts at 20 now, we need to abandon these Kate Moss measures and 2 more points are given for Black people given they are of more robust build than Caucasians. Even if you want to be nitpicky and say its normal, it is barely normal and only just inside the old normal range. To me it is skeletal and underweight (Then again I weigh 255lb (117kg) and have a BMI of 37, so nearly twice as much as him, yet I don't have heart attacks, diabetes or need any pills, I can't even get colds.

So. Underweight for a Negro male is a BMI under 22, healthy is 22 to 27, Overweight is 27 to 32 and obese is over 32.

Oh and for those of us who live in any country other than Amerikkka, Liberia or Myanmar 112lb is 50.9kg or just 8 stone. 5ft 3 is 1.57 to 1.595m tall.

.

It is sad that lethat drug killed him and I would say it was administered by the doctor, not Prince being hooked on it. Those gossip mags and rags going on about AIDS need to be shot.

Got some kind of love for you, and I don't even know your name
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Reply #244 posted 06/02/16 4:05pm

cindyt

its on dr. drew right now. and they said minnesota law is very strict and this is very limited info they are giving. but they said there are no other conditions that caused death....that you CAN conclude that. i gotta listen.

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Reply #245 posted 06/02/16 4:06pm

ThirdStrike

avatar

jesme1999 said:

nursev said:
glad to know...never seen any other form but patches.
Me either ...i can assure you my ex is not In severe pain ... Hes just addicted to opiates .

Very good point. Most here are making arguments that his use of the Fentanyl was out of neccessity for treating chronic pain. But from what I've read, it has also been used quite regularly recreationally as well. That being said, it's also quite possible that his graduation to Fentanyl could have been from the use of the lesser strength Percocet (which he most likely started to use to deal with the pain). My point is, we can't ignore the possibility that he used the Fentanyl strictly as a result of an addiction only. As much as it sucks to say, what if our hero was just simply a Fentanyl addict? Again, can't ignore all the possibilities...

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Reply #246 posted 06/02/16 4:08pm

jesme1999

alphastreet said:

lavie said:



nursev said:


see this why we can never have decent conversations here about anything...always somebody trying to negate the experience of others. We're just discussing it...if you have a legitimate answer then help us understand. [Edited 6/2/16 15:37pm]


Very much appreciate your input on this discussion as a medical professional. Not sure why it would be disrespectful to Prince to have this discussion.



Totally agree with you guys.



Count me in !
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Reply #247 posted 06/02/16 4:10pm

cindyt

cindyt said:

its on dr. drew right now. and they said minnesota law is very strict and this is very limited info they are giving. but they said there are no other conditions that caused death....that you CAN conclude that. i gotta listen.

and dr. drew really thinks a benzo was involved. but they don't have to list it if it wasn't at a toxic level..and the fentanyl was at a toxic level.

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Reply #248 posted 06/02/16 4:13pm

destinyc1

cindyt said:

its on dr. drew right now. and they said minnesota law is very strict and this is very limited info they are giving. but they said there are no other conditions that caused death....that you CAN conclude that. i gotta listen.

Watching right now.They're saying drug dealers sell it in pill form.Geez this is crazy.

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Reply #249 posted 06/02/16 4:14pm

RiotPaisley

nursev said:

mont0372 said:



jesme1999 said:


simm0061 said:

My sister works in a MN hospital and says she's never seen that prescribed. It is usually administered at the hospital, usually when someone is terminal. She said it is used for "conscious sedation" in hospitals. And a pain specialist would only prescribe that if the paitent was terminal...and even then, not likely.


Some one is probably going to go to jail on this one. Probably why that MN Dr was fired...



I know many people who go to pain management And are prescribes Fentanyl patches plus Pills My 83 yr old ex mother in law is one of them . Its used alot for severe chronic pain .

From my understanding, Prince didn't have a Fentanyl patch, he injected it. I don't think it's normal for a patient to inject. Correct me if I'm wrong.




wow...never seen this in 20 yrs as a nurse. Any time your injecting anything into your body there is no room for error...quick way to die.


I don't know where the info that HE was injecting it came from but it is true- heroin addicts I have known cut them up and inject the gel. There is a website- I won't name here but it's mostly people who use sharing tips and tricks. You can google "can you inject fentynal" and the site comes up cuz I didn't believe it when I was told they were doing it... Sure enough this site came up and I couldn't believe the site itself even existed let alone injecting a GEL substance.

There's a post on here too that said two weeks ago a report about synthetic fentynal was found in upper MN. I'm concerned there is a connection and eventually criminal charges are going to start rolling in. I have a feeling this is going to be ugly. Real ugly.
Surprise, surprise.
Another treat. Another trick.
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Reply #250 posted 06/02/16 4:15pm

jesme1999

ThirdStrike said:



jesme1999 said:


nursev said:
glad to know...never seen any other form but patches.

Me either ...i can assure you my ex is not In severe pain ... Hes just addicted to opiates .

Very good point. Most here are making arguments that his use of the Fentanyl was out of neccessity for treating chronic pain. But from what I've read, it has also been used quite regularly recreationally as well. That being said, it's also quite possible that his graduation to Fentanyl could have been from the use of the lesser strength Percocet (which he most likely started to use to deal with the pain). My point is, we can't ignore the possibility that he used the Fentanyl strictly as a result of an addiction only. As much as it sucks to say, what if our hero was just simply a Fentanyl addict? Again, can't ignore all the possibilities...



Its sad, but its true .
By the way , my ex started out on lortab
For paine and just got sucked in down a
Deep dark hole of addiction
I doubt he even knows if he has pain anymore.
He just needs his natcorics to function .
We have no clue where Prince falls in
All this .
And i think no less of him , in fact it
Just makes him more human to me ,
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Reply #251 posted 06/02/16 4:17pm

RiotPaisley

cindyt said:



GGlow said:


Why did the lady on CNN at the Medical Examiners office have to state it like "This is the new Heroine?" I don't like that! Goodness. Prince was in severe hip pain! He just took too many pills! Geee I miss him. sad



http://go.cnn.com/?stream=cnn&sr=watchHPbutton





because they are doing their best to make him look like an addict. there is so much wrong with this whole thing I can't even stand it. well, i need to not say anything else.



No I think they are referring to an article someone else posted about synthetic fentynal popping up in MN. That is STRONGER than heroin. I haven't researched it but I think it was a comment to say people are turning from heroin onto this stuff because it's stronger.
Surprise, surprise.
Another treat. Another trick.
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Reply #252 posted 06/02/16 4:20pm

mypurpledream

This is just so sad, my god he was so thin! only 110pounds, any drugs would have killed him.

Heartbreaking. sad

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Reply #253 posted 06/02/16 4:21pm

JLVLL

jonnylawson said:

Okay we have the results now Tragic - I admismiter and work with fentsnyl a lot , I can understand his this happened Why not lock this thread now ? I can't believe people are discussing his autopsy and " oh where did the scar come from " Have some respect It's probably because I work in the aeromedical and ICU Setting I find ths incredibly disrespectful RIP prince - you would have fucking despised all this gossip and lack of respect

Thank you. I've been trying to read some of the comments without getting physically sick from the invasion of privacy, but finding it hard. This is a very professional autopsy made to satisfy and shut the public up, giving as little information on the deceased as possible, still including TMI. Only the family has the right to the full inclusive one. This does not and will not change my opinion of the talent and accomplishements of this Artist

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Reply #254 posted 06/02/16 4:22pm

babynoz

lavie said:

nursev said:

see this why we can never have decent conversations here about anything...always somebody trying to negate the experience of others. We're just discussing it...if you have a legitimate answer then help us understand. [Edited 6/2/16 15:37pm]

Very much appreciate your input on this discussion as a medical professional. Not sure why it would be disrespectful to Prince to have this discussion.



Me too. As someone with pain issues I am grateful to people who have shared their knowledge and experiences here. Even though I have my own doctor it's still helpful.

Prince, in you I found a kindred spirit...Rest In Paradise.
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Reply #255 posted 06/02/16 4:24pm

purplethunder3
121

avatar

Dibblekins said:

Justgivemearose said:

He must have been in a lot of pain.This medication is not for a little pain. It is heavy heavy stuff. I just wonder why he waited so long to get a proper treatment for his pains. Why stay in pain ? Nobody should have to live in pain all the time. It is such a shame he died. We can never go to concerts again. I wish we could go back in time ... and that someone oblidged him to stay in a hospital untill all the medical problems are solved. Rest in piece Angel Love

Sadly, sometimes, there are no solutions to chronic pain conditions. Surgery isn't always the answer - and can, in more instances than I'd like to mention, actually exacerbate / cause more pain and a worsening of symptomatology.

Until we find out (IF we ever find out) the underlying cause for Prince's pain, we can't know if there were any alternatives to his taking strong medication.

This is true sadly. I have a good friend who has been fit his whole life--into sports, going to the gym every day, eating healthy and now at 50 he has chronic back and knee pain. He had one surgery on a knee and now says that his knee is worse after surgery and the pain is worse than in the knee that didn't get operated on. He refuses to have more knee surgery. So far he has avoided pain killers beside legal marijuana for pain...but who knows how long he can avoid it?!! sad

"Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything." --Plato
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Reply #256 posted 06/02/16 4:27pm

jkrumes

avatar

Fentanyl patches, huh? No wonder it was reported early-on that drugs were found ON his person. I always envisioned a bottle of pills in his pocket. It must have been a real easy starting point for them when they found a patch (or patches) on him.

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Reply #257 posted 06/02/16 4:32pm

TurnItUp

donnyenglish said:

luv4u said:

Does not say a whole hell of a lot. confused

I was expecting more information than that or is that normal?

The more info the more questions that will be raised. He died from an OD of fentanyl. He died because he needed with managing his pain and he had no one that could help him. He helped so many, but he was human and needed help. Nothing more to say on this. Let's celebrate his life.

Look I like many of you orgers love and miss him so much and this is heartbreaking, but the part about he had nobody to help him. I don't think so, he didn't HELP HIMSELF! That person has to be willing to get help and I wished he would've gotten immediate help when he OD the first time on the plane that Friday after the ATL show. But he's the one that had to deal with that chronic pain, not us.

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Reply #258 posted 06/02/16 4:36pm

TurnItUp

GGlow said:

Why did the lady on CNN at the Medical Examiners office have to state it like "This is the new Heroine?" I don't like that! Goodness. Prince was in severe hip pain! He just took too many pills! Geee I miss him. sad

http://go.cnn.com/?stream=cnn&sr=watchHPbutton

Hip pain! I still think he had cancer. I think that was the chronic pain he was dealing with. I came across another photo of him at that record shop he went to back in the winter with some lady beside him and it made cry just looking at him. He had the face of death and he had on a black outfit that came all the way up to his neck and that same black hat. He looked terminal.

[Edited 6/2/16 16:47pm]

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Reply #259 posted 06/02/16 4:39pm

TurnItUp

jillybean said:

Sorry. I didn't mean to cause any trouble by mentioning his weight. It just looked like such a small amount there on the page. But he was never overweight, and he was of a smaller stature.

Don't apologize about the weight loss. There are some orgers that are just having a hard time dealing with this. I am one of them, but what difference does it make. It's not gonna bring him back. He's in a better place which is what he's been preparing himself for.

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Reply #260 posted 06/02/16 4:41pm

babynoz

nursev said:

lavie said:

Very much appreciate your input on this discussion as a medical professional. Not sure why it would be disrespectful to Prince to have this discussion.

no problem...but I'm done. These conversations here always end badly. Prince probably could've been saved if he had employees who knew what to do and were not just yes men... yes men kill.



Well thanks for your input again. A birthday package from my dear friend arrived just as I'm reading these threads and she sent me some commemorative magazine issues so I'm back to crying again. sad

All I can think of is the pain is over now.

Prince, in you I found a kindred spirit...Rest In Paradise.
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Reply #261 posted 06/02/16 4:44pm

TurnItUp

RiotPaisley said:

BanishedBrian said:


If he had cancer, I'd think that his family and friends would have disclosed it weeks ago, as it would have been a sympathetic story that would have squashed most of the speculation about drug dependence/addiction.

Maybe they didn't know- they have the full report and it's their info to distribute if they desire. I could see him not telling his blood family. Close friends may have known. But he didn't want us to know so... I don't expect to hear about it.

His family would not have and probably won't say nothin. They haven't said nothin all this time when he was alive and even in the last month of his death. The only thing they're concerned with is that will. If I was him I wouldn't have wanted anybody to know either. When people know you got cancer, (if that was the case) they wanna put you in an early grave.

[Edited 6/2/16 16:48pm]

[Edited 6/2/16 16:49pm]

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Reply #262 posted 06/02/16 4:44pm

sharkbaiter

My experience with fentanyl patches was for a cat of mine that had an advanced form of bone cancer. The vet put the patches on the back of her leg and we had to bring her in every 48 hours to get them changed. We were never allowed to handle the patches nor possess them to put on her ourselves. They are only prescribed in animals for terminal cases. I'm guessing it is similarly prescribed for humans.
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Reply #263 posted 06/02/16 4:45pm

purplepoppy

mont0372 said:

jesme1999 said:

simm0061 said: I know many people who go to pain management And are prescribes Fentanyl patches plus Pills My 83 yr old ex mother in law is one of them . Its used alot for severe chronic pain .

From my understanding, Prince didn't have a Fentanyl patch, he injected it. I don't think it's normal for a patient to inject. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Sorry Nursev - I was replying to this inflammatory poster re the - No idea how it was administered. heart

Brand new boogie without the hero.
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Reply #264 posted 06/02/16 4:46pm

purplethunder3
121

avatar

babynoz said:

nursev said:

lavie said: no problem...but I'm done. These conversations here always end badly. Prince probably could've been saved if he had employees who knew what to do and were not just yes men... yes men kill.



Well thanks for your input again. A birthday package from my dear friend arrived just as I'm reading these threads and she sent me some commemorative magazine issues so I'm back to crying again. sad

All I can think of is the pain is over now.

Yes, I feel for you--I'm back to where I was before...and I was doing better. sad This, after I heard today my ex-husband who I haven't seen in years showed up looking for me at my old apartment last night with a suitcase in hand... It's been a helluva day and I think we all a grouphug

"Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything." --Plato
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Reply #265 posted 06/02/16 4:46pm

milesb

I prefer to think of it as he'd done all he needed to do. Mission accomplished.

And so he slipped away as mysteriously as he'd come, and as mysteriously as he'd lived his life.

My password is what
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Reply #266 posted 06/02/16 4:47pm

sonshine

avatar

simm0061 said:



jesme1999 said:


simm0061 said:

My sister works in a MN hospital and says she's never seen that prescribed. It is usually administered at the hospital, usually when someone is terminal. She said it is used for "conscious sedation" in hospitals. And a pain specialist would only prescribe that if the paitent was terminal...and even then, not likely.


Some one is probably going to go to jail on this one. Probably why that MN Dr was fired...



I know many people who go to pain management And are prescribes Fentanyl patches plus Pills My 83 yr old ex mother in law is one of them . Its used alot for severe chronic pain .

I doubt it is prescibed often to non-terminal patients. But there are a lot of sh*tty drs out there I suppose...


Omg please don't assume things or accuse medical professionals of wrongdoing. They aren't to blame. They are just doing their jobs the best they can under very difficult circumstances. There are no easy answers. It's obvious there were lots of people trying to help him at the end. It's heartbreaking that it was too little too late.
It's a hurtful place, the world, in and of itself. We don't need to add to it. We all need one another. ~ PRN
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Reply #267 posted 06/02/16 4:50pm

EddieC

Okay.

Fentanyl toxicity.

That's all we know--all the stuff about how it was administered (well, beyond the description "self") in Prince's case. Nobody here knows. It doesn't matter how many bizarre ways some abusers come up with to get it in their systems, no one has said anything to indicate Prince was doing anything like that. Nobody here knows if he was trying to come off of it, and then took it again and that led to the problems. Nothing extreme is necessary for him to have overdosed. As Nursev pointed out, this is strong stuff, with lots of clear protocols about administration. When I worked in geriatric care (as a nurse's aid, not a nurse) a patch coming off prematurely was a major issue, because they couldn't reposition it or replace it with another bacause of possibly messing up the timed release. And, yeah, you had to avoid touching it because if you weren't supposed to be taking it it would mess you up. I can imagine very easily something happening so that Prince, in a completely legitimate way, OD'd accidentally and without any nefarious or illegal activity being involved. I can imagine equally easily something quite illegal and very irresponsible involving lots and lots of people. Some possible scenarios involve other health conditions; some don't. BUT (and this is the real point) none of us know anything beyond what's been released, and that's just "Fentanyl toxicity." The fact that some of us have experience with the drug's use (and abuse) doesn't mean that we know what Prince was doing.

We don't know why he was taking it. We don't know how he was taking it. We don't know how he was getting it. We don't even know if he'd been taking it for a long time or a short time (yes, we feel pretty safe in saying he's been taking something for some reason for some time--but none of us were hearing that it was fentanyl until today) We don't know if there were other health issues.Someone does, probably--but not us.

I hoped for something more from this report, but I didn't really expect it. Yes, I would have liked a non-drug related thing, but I didn't expect that either.

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Reply #268 posted 06/02/16 4:52pm

BanishedBrian

Dibblekins said:

BanishedBrian said:


If he had cancer, we'll hear about it immently... there is no way that the family would allow the publicly released cause to be opioid OD when the underlying cause was cancer. Further, in those circumstances I think the medical examiner would have included cancer as a "cause of cause" on the report.

No, that's not the case. Underlying diseases / conditions don't have to be included if they're not the PRECISE cause of death.

As I explained earlier, my Dad had bladder cancer which caused renal blockage / failure - and it was the latter that led directly to his death. On the resultant certificate, the cause of death cited was 'renal failure', not the underlying disease (bladder cancer).


There's a separate place on the certificate to list "significant conditions," which would usually be filled in if there was an underlying illness. Per the CDC guidelines, this is supposed to include: "all diseases or conditions contributing to death that were not reported in the chain of events in Part I and that did not result in the underlying cause of death." (http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/d...d_form.pdf

Who knows for sure, but in a case like this where the findings will be scrutinized, I'd find it surprising if they did not list something like cancer if it was part of the equation that led to the medicine being prescribed. We'll know one way or the other eventually when more information comes out.

No Candy 4 Me
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Reply #269 posted 06/02/16 4:52pm

OzlemUcucu

avatar

Everything is getting too much now. I think we should be careful as we are crossing a line here. This whole discussion is causing a lot of pain. I don't wanna be part of that. confused

Prince I will always miss and love U.
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Forums > Prince: Music and More > Midwest Medical Examiner’s Office just released the investigation results...