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Thread started 11/06/19 12:59pm

guitarslinger4
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America's Wage Problem


I've been noticing this for awhile now. Unemployment numbers look good, but that's probably because a lot of especially lower skilled people, need to work 2 or more jobs. This is essentially fudging the numbers.




https://www.cbsnews.com/news/americas-job-problem-low-wage-work-is-growing-fastest/

America has a wage problem.

The country is projected to add almost 8 million jobs through 2022, representing 5 percent growth, according to a new study from CareerBuilder. Even though that represents a positive trend, the findings raise major red flags: Low-wage jobs are expected to grow the fastest, while middle-wage work will continue to decline.

The job growth would represent a continuation of the recovery witnessed since the Great Recession ended, when employers cut workers and were slow to start hiring again. Yet the quality of jobs is increasingly a focus of economists and policymakers because "Automation is eliminating middle-wage workers," said CareerBuilder spokeswoman Jennifer Grasz. That trend is likely to continue.

"For a lot of workers becoming displaced," Grasz added, "there has to be an action plan, or they have to go back to the classroom to learn new skills." Without learning new skills, some of those workers will be pushed into low-wage jobs, or positions that pay less than $14.25 an hour.

Middle-wage jobs are those that pay between $14.26 and $23.23 an hour, while high-wage jobs pay $23.24 or more per hour, CareerBuilder said.

The fastest-growing professions are STEM-related careers, or jobs in science, technology, engineering and math. They also tend to be higher-paying positions, such as software developers, who earn median hourly wages of $50.03.

The low-wage jobs that are projected to grow quickly are roles that can't be left to automation, such as home health aides, taxi drivers and food prep, Grasz said.

Currently, plenty of jobs are available for people without college degrees. Georgetown University and JPMorgan Chase (JPM) found the U.S. now has 30 million middle-class jobs for less-educated workers. Yet that research found good jobs are increasingly shifting toward Americans with college degrees, who now hold the bulk of high... positions.

Below are the fastest growing and declining jobs over the next five years, with the growth rate and median hourly wages.

Fastest growing:

1. Personal care aides (16 percent growth): $10.89 per hour

2. Home health aides (16 percent): $11.25

3. Web developers (15 percent): $30.75

4. Nurse practitioners (14 percent): $50.14

5. Physical therapists (12 percent): $41.57

6. Industrial machinery mechanics (12 percent): $24.65

7. Computer systems analysts (12 percent): $43.04

8. Software developers (11 percent): $50.03

9. Market research analysts (11 percent): $31.52

10. Personal financial advisers (10 percent): 43.87

Fastest declining:

1. Switchboard operators (-11 percent): $13.23

2. Door-to-door sales, street vendors (-10 percent): $10.25

3. Printing press operator (-5 percent): $17.22

4. Molding, coremaking and casting machine setters (-4 percent): $14.27

5. Cutting, punching and press machine setters (-4 percent): $15.30

6. Sewing machine operators (-4 percent): $11.38

7. Tellers (-4 percent): $12.56

8. Construction managers (-3 percent): $34.25

9. Cooks, fast food (-2 percent): $9.67

10. Bookkeeping, accounting (-1 percent): $18.23

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Reply #1 posted 11/06/19 3:04pm

RodeoSchro

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This is the economic reason that unrepentant serial adulterer Donald J. Trump was elected. Wages had not gone up much, or maybe not even at all, during the Obama presidency.

But unrepentant serial adulterer Donald J. Trump didn't do anything for anyone except the rich, and that will contribute to his undoing, assuming he's still in office on November 3, 2020.

"Trickle down" economics have never worked. We have three concrete examples of the failure of supply-side economics and it's a puzzle to me why anyone in their right mind still buys into that failed economic theory.

Second Funkiest White Man in America

P&R's Palladin
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Reply #2 posted 11/06/19 4:15pm

onlyforaminute

Not sure what classifies as low skill but most people i encounter have more than one job, either they're working towards their own business or they need the extra income. It's funny the amount you have for home health care, where I live it starts at $15 usually it falls at $17/ph and honestly that isn't a living wage here, you'd need another income to do more than survive. Probably explains why the homeless population has exploded here. I'm sure many of those are employed to some extent.
Year of Return 2019
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Reply #3 posted 11/06/19 4:39pm

guitarslinger4
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RodeoSchro said:

This is the economic reason that unrepentant serial adulterer Donald J. Trump was elected. Wages had not gone up much, or maybe not even at all, during the Obama presidency.

But unrepentant serial adulterer Donald J. Trump didn't do anything for anyone except the rich, and that will contribute to his undoing, assuming he's still in office on November 3, 2020.

"Trickle down" economics have never worked. We have three concrete examples of the failure of supply-side economics and it's a puzzle to me why anyone in their right mind still buys into that failed economic theory.


I don't think you can really lay the blame solely at the feet of Trump. Sure, he hasn't really done anything to help the problem, but this is something that's been growing decade after decade probably since the late 70's maybe even before.


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Reply #4 posted 11/06/19 4:40pm

guitarslinger4
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onlyforaminute said:

Not sure what classifies as low skill but most people i encounter have more than one job, either they're working towards their own business or they need the extra income. It's funny the amount you have for home health care, where I live it starts at $15 usually it falls at $17/ph and honestly that isn't a living wage here, you'd need another income to do more than survive. Probably explains why the homeless population has exploded here. I'm sure many of those are employed to some extent.


Where do you live that this is that case? eek

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Reply #5 posted 11/06/19 7:51pm

RodeoSchro

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guitarslinger44 said:



RodeoSchro said:


This is the economic reason that unrepentant serial adulterer Donald J. Trump was elected. Wages had not gone up much, or maybe not even at all, during the Obama presidency.

But unrepentant serial adulterer Donald J. Trump didn't do anything for anyone except the rich, and that will contribute to his undoing, assuming he's still in office on November 3, 2020.

"Trickle down" economics have never worked. We have three concrete examples of the failure of supply-side economics and it's a puzzle to me why anyone in their right mind still buys into that failed economic theory.




I don't think you can really lay the blame solely at the feet of Trump. Sure, he hasn't really done anything to help the problem, but this is something that's been growing decade after decade probably since the late 70's maybe even before.




Re-read my first paragraph.
Second Funkiest White Man in America

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Reply #6 posted 11/07/19 5:52am

2elijah

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Too many parents are working two jobs, even those with degrees. Takes time away from their children, but often don't have a choice. Many companies, especially since the Bush economic downturn, stopped giving higher raises, cut their personnel in half, and are giving less perks, and offering lower wages. Very few companies have pensions for their employees, and are offering 401ks or 403bs instead.

On top of that the price of food/basic resources, transportation expenses, etc., been on the rise for the past 10 years. One of the good things though, is that a lot more people have started online businesses as a second/ third income, by using their creative skills/passions to make money from it. Thanks to FB, Instagram/Etsy/Amazon, etc., which help many people obtain subscribers/
customers for their businesses.

On the other hand, not everyone has the skills or resources to start a business online. Homelessness is on the rise, rents all over major cities are skyrocketing, health care cost is still not affordable for many, just to name a few of many societal issues.
[Edited 11/7/19 6:42am]
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Reply #7 posted 11/07/19 7:07am

poppys

Saw an interview with Sen Klobuchar. She comes from a union family. Some background info was the unions were formed to combat employer abuse during the Gilded Age. They gave us the rise of the middle class, factory workers, teachers etc. Now only 10% of US jobs are unionized.

politics: the art or science of government.
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Reply #8 posted 11/07/19 7:13am

jaawwnn

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It's the end result of 40 years of neoliberal policy, and I don't mean that in a glib manner. As RodeoSchroe says "Trickle down" economics have never worked.

Arguably the system is working fine, extractive capitalism is making more money than ever and it's going to those at the top, as designed.

The problem is everywhere, in the west anyway, but it seems to be especially pronounced in the USA, I guess because it has such tiny welfare and healthcare compared to other countries. Whether you're for Medicare for all or not, imagine how big a shift in people's lives and minds it would be to not be dependent on your employer for your health insurance?

We need a new way of valuing life, it requires a psychological shift of the same kind that Thatcher and Reagan achieved in the 80s where everyone is now a CEO and entrepeneur for the business of themselves.



[Edited 11/7/19 7:16am]

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Reply #9 posted 11/07/19 7:45am

onlyforaminute

guitarslinger44 said:



onlyforaminute said:


Not sure what classifies as low skill but most people i encounter have more than one job, either they're working towards their own business or they need the extra income. It's funny the amount you have for home health care, where I live it starts at $15 usually it falls at $17/ph and honestly that isn't a living wage here, you'd need another income to do more than survive. Probably explains why the homeless population has exploded here. I'm sure many of those are employed to some extent.


Where do you live that this is that case? eek


Southern California.
Year of Return 2019
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Reply #10 posted 11/07/19 10:03am

Empress

poppys said:

Saw an interview with Sen Klobuchar. She comes from a union family. Some background info was the unions were formed to combat employer abuse during the Gilded Age. They gave us the rise of the middle class, factory workers, teachers etc. Now only 10% of US jobs are unionized.

Many union jobs are grossly overpaid. Not all, but many. This is partly why everything is so outrageously expensive. Also, take teachers for example. I'm speaking about Canadian teachers specifically. Most retire will full pension around 55. By full pension, I mean if you were a high school teacher making roughly $100K, once you retire your yearly pension is around $75K. Do you know anyone that has a pension quite like that?? I only know of teachers that are this fortunate. I'm not saying they shouldn't be paid well, of course they should, but why should they get more in pension that most people make for their yearly salarly. confused I know 3 that are making exactly this on their pensions. That means the taxpayers are paying for these outrageous pension.

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Reply #11 posted 11/07/19 10:26am

13cjk13

Empress said:

poppys said:

Saw an interview with Sen Klobuchar. She comes from a union family. Some background info was the unions were formed to combat employer abuse during the Gilded Age. They gave us the rise of the middle class, factory workers, teachers etc. Now only 10% of US jobs are unionized.

Many union jobs are grossly overpaid. Not all, but many. This is partly why everything is so outrageously expensive. Also, take teachers for example. I'm speaking about Canadian teachers specifically. Most retire will full pension around 55. By full pension, I mean if you were a high school teacher making roughly $100K, once you retire your yearly pension is around $75K. Do you know anyone that has a pension quite like that?? I only know of teachers that are this fortunate. I'm not saying they shouldn't be paid well, of course they should, but why should they get more in pension that most people make for their yearly salarly. confused I know 3 that are making exactly this on their pensions. That means the taxpayers are paying for these outrageous pension.

CEO pay is 271 times the nearly $58,000 annual average pay of the typical American worker.

"If we had had confidence the president clearly did not commit a crime, we would have said so."
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Reply #12 posted 11/07/19 11:58am

poppys

Empress said:

poppys said:

Saw an interview with Sen Klobuchar. She comes from a union family. Some background info was the unions were formed to combat employer abuse during the Gilded Age. They gave us the rise of the middle class, factory workers, teachers etc. Now only 10% of US jobs are unionized.

Many union jobs are grossly overpaid. Not all, but many. This is partly why everything is so outrageously expensive. Also, take teachers for example. I'm speaking about Canadian teachers specifically. Most retire will full pension around 55. By full pension, I mean if you were a high school teacher making roughly $100K, once you retire your yearly pension is around $75K. Do you know anyone that has a pension quite like that?? I only know of teachers that are this fortunate. I'm not saying they shouldn't be paid well, of course they should, but why should they get more in pension that most people make for their yearly salarly. confused I know 3 that are making exactly this on their pensions. That means the taxpayers are paying for these outrageous pension.


Not the case in the US. Teachers are grossly underpaid here, so much so that they work 2 jobs or leave the field. Public schools are underfunded to the point where children have to provide their own toilet paper and other supplies. It varies from state to state and district to district. School levys are often voted down by taxpayers.

My nephew and his family live in Vancouver BC. He is a fireman with excellent benefits. Fire and police do have much better benefits here than teachers. And, as Jaawwnn said, we don't have universal healthcare. Many people go without. Even meds like insulin for diabetes are at the pricing mercy of Big Pharma. Your gov negotiates drug prices, ours doesn't.

politics: the art or science of government.
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Reply #13 posted 11/07/19 12:17pm

poppys

13cjk13 said:

Empress said:

Many union jobs are grossly overpaid. Not all, but many. This is partly why everything is so outrageously expensive. Also, take teachers for example. I'm speaking about Canadian teachers specifically. Most retire will full pension around 55. By full pension, I mean if you were a high school teacher making roughly $100K, once you retire your yearly pension is around $75K. Do you know anyone that has a pension quite like that?? I only know of teachers that are this fortunate. I'm not saying they shouldn't be paid well, of course they should, but why should they get more in pension that most people make for their yearly salarly. confused I know 3 that are making exactly this on their pensions. That means the taxpayers are paying for these outrageous pension.


CEO pay
is 271 times the nearly $58,000 annual average pay of the typical American worker.


Exactly. I'm not saying it has to be unions, they are only 10% of the workforce now anyway. But SOMETHING's got to give.

politics: the art or science of government.
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Reply #14 posted 11/11/19 2:34pm

LadyLayla

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Empress, 100K? I'm guessing that is Canadian $$ and that translates to $75K/yr USD. Highest paid teachers that I know of are in NYC and I heard of an amount of $88K/yr for one with 10 years experience.

Pensions are dead here in US unless you are a teacher, police, fire, state or government worker and those pensions vary widely.

We ALL know that teachers, police and fire will need their pensions. So, I say since it was our Congress and Senators who probably voted long ago to stop pensions on most jobs---Let's vote to STOP their pensions and health care once they've left or have been voted out of office. Let them save on a 401K like the rest of us schlepers and make them choose their own healthcare. Get THEM (Dems and Pubes) OFF our government welfare and use that money for infrastructure and create more jobs.

THAT might make the ones in office try to work together a little better.

Style is the second cousin to class
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Reply #15 posted 11/11/19 3:06pm

guitarslinger4
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LadyLayla said:

Empress, 100K? I'm guessing that is Canadian $$ and that translates to $75K/yr USD. Highest paid teachers that I know of are in NYC and I heard of an amount of $88K/yr for one with 10 years experience.

Pensions are dead here in US unless you are a teacher, police, fire, state or government worker and those pensions vary widely.

We ALL know that teachers, police and fire will need their pensions. So, I say since it was our Congress and Senators who probably voted long ago to stop pensions on most jobs---Let's vote to STOP their pensions and health care once they've left or have been voted out of office. Let them save on a 401K like the rest of us schlepers and make them choose their own healthcare. Get THEM (Dems and Pubes) OFF our government welfare and use that money for infrastructure and create more jobs.

THAT might make the ones in office try to work together a little better.


I think congresspeople should forego their congressional pension if they choose to work after their terms. Most of them are wealthy anyway, no reason the rest of us should foot the bill for their golden years, especially if they're already real well off.

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Reply #16 posted 11/14/19 11:01pm

TweetyV6

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13cjk13 said:

CEO pay is 271 times the nearly $58,000 annual average pay of the typical American worker.

eek LOLWUT?!?! lol
271 times as much? That's $15.7 million

That might be in some exceptional cases at very big companies. But I bet it's not common.
For sure not those companies I have visited in the past.
Many of them didn't even have an anual turnover of $15M-20M

The man of science has learned to believe in justification, not by faith, but by verification - Thomas Henry Huxley
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Reply #17 posted 11/15/19 2:39am

jaawwnn

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TweetyV6 said:

13cjk13 said:

CEO pay is 271 times the nearly $58,000 annual average pay of the typical American worker.

eek LOLWUT?!?! lol
271 times as much? That's $15.7 million

That might be in some exceptional cases at very big companies. But I bet it's not common.
For sure not those companies I have visited in the past.
Many of them didn't even have an anual turnover of $15M-20M

It comes from a report from 2017 on the top 350 companies in the USA, and yeah, 15.7 million is the figure. You are correct that it is far from every company.

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Reply #18 posted 11/15/19 3:19am

BombSquad

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Ideally speaking, the President of the United States and the dumbest person in the country would be two different people. Oh well.... money can't fix stupid
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Reply #19 posted 11/15/19 5:10am

13cjk13

jaawwnn said:

TweetyV6 said:

eek LOLWUT?!?! lol
271 times as much? That's $15.7 million

That might be in some exceptional cases at very big companies. But I bet it's not common.
For sure not those companies I have visited in the past.
Many of them didn't even have an anual turnover of $15M-20M

It comes from a report from 2017 on the top 350 companies in the USA, and yeah, 15.7 million is the figure. You are correct that it is far from every company.

And, evidently, the great graph maker thinks it's hilarious.

"If we had had confidence the president clearly did not commit a crime, we would have said so."
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Reply #20 posted 11/15/19 6:05am

poppys

Numbers footsie is a fun game for a few people. The rest of us are just poor.

[Edited 11/15/19 6:08am]

politics: the art or science of government.
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Reply #21 posted 11/15/19 5:42pm

benni

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onlyforaminute said:

Not sure what classifies as low skill but most people i encounter have more than one job, either they're working towards their own business or they need the extra income. It's funny the amount you have for home health care, where I live it starts at $15 usually it falls at $17/ph and honestly that isn't a living wage here, you'd need another income to do more than survive. Probably explains why the homeless population has exploded here. I'm sure many of those are employed to some extent.


As a social worker who works with the elderly and those with disabilities, I work with home health aides every day. The company I work for contracts with the state. The state pays home health aide agencies between $14 and $18 per hour. The agencies then pay their aides out of what they reimbursed by the state, and it usually comes out between $9 and $11 per hour.

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Reply #22 posted 11/15/19 6:07pm

onlyforaminute

benni said:



onlyforaminute said:


Not sure what classifies as low skill but most people i encounter have more than one job, either they're working towards their own business or they need the extra income. It's funny the amount you have for home health care, where I live it starts at $15 usually it falls at $17/ph and honestly that isn't a living wage here, you'd need another income to do more than survive. Probably explains why the homeless population has exploded here. I'm sure many of those are employed to some extent.


As a social worker who works with the elderly and those with disabilities, I work with home health aides every day. The company I work for contracts with the state. The state pays home health aide agencies between $14 and $18 per hour. The agencies then pay their aides out of what they reimbursed by the state, and it usually comes out between $9 and $11 per hour.


Im just using the info of what I've just gone through. Going through an agency there were 2 separate amounts based on whether one chose to pay the hhc privately or whether everything was to be handled by the agency. Various agencies had slightly different amounts but they averaged what I stated. All I can say not my field of expertise but have done a mountain's worth of phone calling, meetings and interviews.
Year of Return 2019
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Reply #23 posted 11/15/19 8:28pm

poppys

BombSquad said:


Seattle, Amazon headquarters, and Silicon Valley, Apple, Google, Facebook... have higher rates of homelessness than New York City or Los Angeles - cities with much bigger populations. 40-60% in Seattle are working homeless.

politics: the art or science of government.
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Reply #24 posted 11/18/19 7:39am

benni

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onlyforaminute said:

benni said:


As a social worker who works with the elderly and those with disabilities, I work with home health aides every day. The company I work for contracts with the state. The state pays home health aide agencies between $14 and $18 per hour. The agencies then pay their aides out of what they reimbursed by the state, and it usually comes out between $9 and $11 per hour.

Im just using the info of what I've just gone through. Going through an agency there were 2 separate amounts based on whether one chose to pay the hhc privately or whether everything was to be handled by the agency. Various agencies had slightly different amounts but they averaged what I stated. All I can say not my field of expertise but have done a mountain's worth of phone calling, meetings and interviews.


I wasn't contradicting you. I was going on the going rate in my state, which isn't that far off from what you said. For us, the pay differential comes in as to whether it is a skilled need or home maintenance. State reimburses those agencies the lower amount for home maintenance. The other thing people need to keep in mind is that many of the aides doing these jobs are not even CNAs, but are high school graduates. They are given very little training (the majority of it is on the job), and they have limited skill sets. So while my state reimburses for the going rate for the aides, the provider agencies do not reimburse the aides at that going rate. Many of them don't even offer health insurance. It really is a low paying job with few benefits. But having said that, each state is different.

My sister worked for a provider agency in a different state, but they were set up primarily the way ours was, with low skilled workers acting as aides. It's sad really, because this will be the one field that grows a lot as the baby boomers age out and start to need these services.

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Reply #25 posted 11/18/19 9:52am

Empress

LadyLayla said:

Empress, 100K? I'm guessing that is Canadian $$ and that translates to $75K/yr USD. Highest paid teachers that I know of are in NYC and I heard of an amount of $88K/yr for one with 10 years experience.

Pensions are dead here in US unless you are a teacher, police, fire, state or government worker and those pensions vary widely.

We ALL know that teachers, police and fire will need their pensions. So, I say since it was our Congress and Senators who probably voted long ago to stop pensions on most jobs---Let's vote to STOP their pensions and health care once they've left or have been voted out of office. Let them save on a 401K like the rest of us schlepers and make them choose their own healthcare. Get THEM (Dems and Pubes) OFF our government welfare and use that money for infrastructure and create more jobs.

THAT might make the ones in office try to work together a little better.

Yes, 100K. In fact, my friend made 105K and her pension is just a little over 75K. She taught high school english and art. And now, our teachers in Ontario are threatening to strike again. They say it's all about the kids, but it's really about the money. Who do they think they're kidding??

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