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Reply #210 posted 10/26/19 11:39am

poppys

maplenpg said:

poppys said:

This is only getting bigger

Pacific plastic dump far larger than feared: study


When you consider we've only been using plastic for a relatively short time, it's really frightening. I am now actively and consciously trying to reduce my plastic use. I'd be all for laws forcing plastic reduction onto companies ASAP.

Agree. They profit from all the single use refuse, they should have to do something about it. And it's not just what we can see. It's so broken down, we are all drinking/eating it. They can no longer filter it out, yech.

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Reply #211 posted 10/26/19 12:18pm

djThunderfunk

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maplenpg said:

djThunderfunk said:


The rain forest and palm oil are a problem, but eliminating trees for paper would make a huge difference in deforestation. 35% of all harvested trees (80,000-160,000 DAILY) are used for paper. This single change would make more difference than any carbon tax, or guilting people who eat meat.


https://www.quora.com/How...-for-paper



[Edited 10/26/19 6:06am]

I'm going to do some more research on this in my own time DJ. For now I will say thank you, you've given me something to think about. Hope you'll consider going palm oil free too... biggrin



I already don't use it.... unless it's 1 of many ingredients in something I do use. I won't be taking the time to read labels to avoid it.

Censorship is ALWAYS wrong, no matter who is doing it or how noble their motivation.
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Reply #212 posted 10/26/19 1:30pm

maplenpg

avatar

djThunderfunk said:

maplenpg said:

I'm going to do some more research on this in my own time DJ. For now I will say thank you, you've given me something to think about. Hope you'll consider going palm oil free too... biggrin



I already don't use it.... unless it's 1 of many ingredients in something I do use. I won't be taking the time to read labels to avoid it.

You should. You really should.

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Reply #213 posted 10/26/19 1:31pm

maplenpg

avatar

poppys said:

maplenpg said:


When you consider we've only been using plastic for a relatively short time, it's really frightening. I am now actively and consciously trying to reduce my plastic use. I'd be all for laws forcing plastic reduction onto companies ASAP.

Agree. They profit from all the single use refuse, they should have to do something about it. And it's not just what we can see. It's so broken down, we are all drinking/eating it. They can no longer filter it out, yech.

Yup. Black plastic is the worst. That needs to be banned.

The Org is my playground and y'all are my playmates.
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Reply #214 posted 10/28/19 5:34pm

DiminutiveRock
er

avatar

Another in a long line of reasons to hate trump:

The Obama-era national fuel economy standard requires automakers to build vehicles that achieve an average fuel economy of 54.5 miles per gallon by 2025, which would eliminate about 6 billions tons of carbon dioxide pollution over the lifetime of those vehicles.

Carbon dioxide is one of the most important greenhouse gases, and in the atmosphere contributes to the warming of the planet.

The Trump administration is planning to roll back that standard to about 37 miles per gallon.




Polute the air and make us fill our tanks more often. WHAT.AN.ASSHOLE.

“In the end the Party would announce that two and two made five, and you would have to believe it. It was inevitable that they should make that claim sooner or later: the logic of their position demanded it.”
-George Orwell, 1984
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Reply #215 posted 10/28/19 11:24pm

TweetyV6

avatar

DiminutiveRocker said:

Carbon dioxide is one of the most important greenhouse gases, and in the atmosphere contributes to the warming of the planet.

No. It's not.

It's a GHG, yes but WATER makes 80-95% of the Green House Effect (depending on the relative humidity) as a result of a Physical Property of polar gasses like H20, CO2, O2 and O3
These absorb a certain range in the IR light spectrum and transform that into heat.


And for CO2 that range is very small and low energetic.

That's scientifically established loooong time ago and is not disputed by anyone.
https://agupubs.onlinelib.../92JD02887

Combining that with the FACT that there's only 410ppm (0,04% which is 1 molecule of CO2 in each 2500 molecules of air) AND that only a small part of that is added by humans then our contribution to the Green House Effect is NOT MEASURABLE.

The man of science has learned to believe in justification, not by faith, but by verification - Thomas Henry Huxley
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Reply #216 posted 10/28/19 11:30pm

maplenpg

avatar

TweetyV6 said:

DiminutiveRocker said:

Carbon dioxide is one of the most important greenhouse gases, and in the atmosphere contributes to the warming of the planet.

No. It's not.

It's a GHG, yes but WATER makes 80-95% of the Green House Effect (depending on the relative humidity) as a result of a Physical Property of polar gasses like H20, CO2, O2 and O3
These absorb a certain range in the IR light spectrum and transform that into heat.


And for CO2 that range is very small and low energetic.

That's scientifically established loooong time ago and is not disputed by anyone.
https://agupubs.onlinelib.../92JD02887

Combining that with the FACT that there's only 410ppm (0,04% which is 1 molecule of CO2 in each 2500 molecules of air) AND that only a small part of that is added by humans then our contribution to the Green House Effect is NOT MEASURABLE.

Even if you ignore the environmental issue, for cars to be more economic should be a good thing. For cars to emit less carbon dioxide should be a good thing. For cars to be looking at alternatives to fossil fuels should be a good thing. I don't understand those who fight progress, even if they don't agree with some of the reasons behind the progress.

The Org is my playground and y'all are my playmates.
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Reply #217 posted 10/28/19 11:37pm

TweetyV6

avatar

maplenpg said:

TweetyV6 said:

Hey Dumbsquad,

Guess what, I won't be shut up by scientific nitwits as you are.

WATER makes 80-95% (depending on the relative humidity) as a result of a Physical Property of polar gasses like H20, CO2, O2 and O3 that they absorb a certain range in the IR light spectrum and transform that into heat.

And for CO2 that range is very small and low energetic.

That's scientifically established loooong time ago and is not disputed by anyone.
https://agupubs.onlinelib.../92JD02887

Combining that with the FACT that there's only 410ppm AND that only a small part of that is added by humans then our contribution to the Green House Effect is NOT MEASURABLE.

Don't think you're smarter then me on this one. UR not.

No Bombsquad, none of us could possibly be smarter. Don't you know Tweety knows more than NASA?

IT'S A SCIENTIFIC FACT. -> look at the link. There's the paper. Peer reviewed, published in the Journal of Geophysical Research in 1993.


The infrared absorbtion capability of a polar gas, like CO2, is a physical property which does not change.

You can compare it to the boiling point of water which ALWAYS will be 100 deg. C at 1 bar pressure.


And regarding NASA: they fucking agree:
"Water Vapor Confirmed as Major Player in Climate Change"

https://www.nasa.gov/topi...rming.html

The man of science has learned to believe in justification, not by faith, but by verification - Thomas Henry Huxley
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Reply #218 posted 10/29/19 12:07am

TweetyV6

avatar

maplenpg said:

poppys said:

This is only getting bigger

Pacific plastic dump far larger than feared: study

See the source image

When you consider we've only been using plastic for a relatively short time, it's really frightening. I am now actively and consciously trying to reduce my plastic use. I'd be all for laws forcing plastic reduction onto companies ASAP.


And that's good. BUT
What people don't tell you is that eventually the plastic will be 'digested' and transformed mostly into CO2.

Plastics are carbon based materials. Carbon based materials are food for organisms.

Several studies show that there ar bacteria and fungi which, when the plastic particles become small enough 'eat' the plastic and digest it to substances like CO2.

The platics become small enough by constant mechanical forces (e.g. like rubbing against eachother) or other external energy like UV rays

Here are some links if you're interrested

Ninety-nine percent of the ocean's plastic is missing
https://www.sciencemag.or...ic-missing

Sunlight Converts Polystyrene to Carbon Dioxide and Dissolved Organic Carbon

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/...tt.9b00532

This one is very interesting if you look at figure Fig. S6

Plastic debris in the open ocean
http://www.condonlab.weeb...239-44.pdf

The graph shows the distribution of particle size of plastics


Intuitively, the number of pieces at various sizes should continue to increase as items breaking into smaller and smaller pieces but instead they found numbers to begin decreasing at about 5 mm and drop off dramatically when items become smaller than 1 mm - approaching zero at less than 0.5 mm.

This is not for lack of trying, the sieves are very fine. In the real world, when the pieces get down below the 1 millimeter size they rapidly disappear altogether.

And I want to emphasize that I'm not talking good that all plastic should be dumped into the sea.
We all should be working towards using less plastics.
We as consumers, but also the industry.


The man of science has learned to believe in justification, not by faith, but by verification - Thomas Henry Huxley
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Reply #219 posted 10/29/19 12:47am

maplenpg

avatar

TweetyV6 said:

maplenpg said:

When you consider we've only been using plastic for a relatively short time, it's really frightening. I am now actively and consciously trying to reduce my plastic use. I'd be all for laws forcing plastic reduction onto companies ASAP.


And that's good. BUT
What people don't tell you is that eventually the plastic will be 'digested' and transformed mostly into CO2.

Plastics are carbon based materials. Carbon based materials are food for organisms.

Several studies show that there ar bacteria and fungi which, when the plastic particles become small enough 'eat' the plastic and digest it to substances like CO2.

The platics become small enough by constant mechanical forces (e.g. like rubbing against eachother) or other external energy like UV rays

Here are some links if you're interrested

Ninety-nine percent of the ocean's plastic is missing
https://www.sciencemag.or...ic-missing

Sunlight Converts Polystyrene to Carbon Dioxide and Dissolved Organic Carbon

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/...tt.9b00532

This one is very interesting if you look at figure Fig. S6

Plastic debris in the open ocean
http://www.condonlab.weeb...239-44.pdf

The graph shows the distribution of particle size of plastics


Intuitively, the number of pieces at various sizes should continue to increase as items breaking into smaller and smaller pieces but instead they found numbers to begin decreasing at about 5 mm and drop off dramatically when items become smaller than 1 mm - approaching zero at less than 0.5 mm.

This is not for lack of trying, the sieves are very fine. In the real world, when the pieces get down below the 1 millimeter size they rapidly disappear altogether.

And I want to emphasize that I'm not talking good that all plastic should be dumped into the sea.
We all should be working towards using less plastics.
We as consumers, but also the industry.


I'm glad we agree we should be working towards using less plastic, and I agree industry needs to do much, much more. I'm not really sure of the point of posting the articles that you chose but there are numerous scientific articles that show plastic is a gargantuan problem. In fact, even in the articles you post it shows that plastic is a huge problem. I quote from the article you posted:



"However, plastic fragments are considered to be quite stable and highly durable, potentially lasting hundreds to thousands of years. Persistent nano-scale particles may be generated during the weathering of plastic debris, although their abundance has not been quantified in ocean waters. As the size of the plastic fragments declines, they can be ingested by a wider range of organisms. Plastic ingestion has been documented from small fish to large mammals. The most evident effects of plastic ingestion are mechanical [e.g., gastrointestinal obstruction in seabirds, but plastic fragments contain contaminants added during plastic manufacture or acquired from seawater through sorption processes. Recent studies provide evidence that these contaminants can accumulate in the receiving organisms during digestion."

[Edited 10/29/19 0:51am]

The Org is my playground and y'all are my playmates.
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Reply #220 posted 10/29/19 5:13am

TweetyV6

avatar

In the mean time, the next big issue has (silently) developed.

A friend of mine works with the Fraunhofer Society, a highly respected Research Institute in Germany where they are looking at what to do with the blades of wind turbines after these have become obsolete.

The first bigger wind turbine parks in Germany reached an in service life time of 20 years, which is the time at which the governmental funding stops and maintenance & repair costs of these turbines exceeds the income the turbines generate.

In other words, economically they become obsolete.

Now they are being dismantled but the big issue is that the blades are made from (glass or carbon) fiber reinforced epoxy resin.

There is no technology (yet) which somehow makes the material re-usable.

And since the blades are too many & too big to put into a landfill, these now are destroyed by literally blowing them up (under water) to pieces small enough to put them in a landfill.

The man of science has learned to believe in justification, not by faith, but by verification - Thomas Henry Huxley
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Reply #221 posted 10/29/19 5:39am

jaawwnn

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I'm sure the invisible hand of the market and some handy entrepreneurial types will fix the issue. Or maybe you'd like more government intervention on the matter? wink

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Reply #222 posted 10/29/19 6:54am

maplenpg

avatar

TweetyV6 said:

In the mean time, the next big issue has (silently) developed.

A friend of mine works with the Fraunhofer Society, a highly respected Research Institute in Germany where they are looking at what to do with the blades of wind turbines after these have become obsolete.

The first bigger wind turbine parks in Germany reached an in service life time of 20 years, which is the time at which the governmental funding stops and maintenance & repair costs of these turbines exceeds the income the turbines generate.

In other words, economically they become obsolete.

Now they are being dismantled but the big issue is that the blades are made from (glass or carbon) fiber reinforced epoxy resin.

There is no technology (yet) which somehow makes the material re-usable.

And since the blades are too many & too big to put into a landfill, these now are destroyed by literally blowing them up (under water) to pieces small enough to put them in a landfill.

I know you love your journal articles Tweety wink


https://www.tandfonline.c...19.1639967

The Org is my playground and y'all are my playmates.
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Reply #223 posted 10/29/19 7:25am

DiminutiveRock
er

avatar

maplenpg said:

TweetyV6 said:

No. It's not.

It's a GHG, yes but WATER makes 80-95% of the Green House Effect (depending on the relative humidity) as a result of a Physical Property of polar gasses like H20, CO2, O2 and O3
These absorb a certain range in the IR light spectrum and transform that into heat.


And for CO2 that range is very small and low energetic.

That's scientifically established loooong time ago and is not disputed by anyone.
https://agupubs.onlinelib.../92JD02887

Combining that with the FACT that there's only 410ppm (0,04% which is 1 molecule of CO2 in each 2500 molecules of air) AND that only a small part of that is added by humans then our contribution to the Green House Effect is NOT MEASURABLE.

Even if you ignore the environmental issue, for cars to be more economic should be a good thing. For cars to emit less carbon dioxide should be a good thing. For cars to be looking at alternatives to fossil fuels should be a good thing. I don't understand those who fight progress, even if they don't agree with some of the reasons behind the progress.


Exactly.


Since we can control that much, we should!


FACT: the air qulaity in Cali is BETTER since these fuel economies have been put into place. If we can get better performance out of our vehicles and eliminate 6 billions tons of carbon dioxide then we should do it. More hybrids! More electric cars! More fuel efficient cars!

“In the end the Party would announce that two and two made five, and you would have to believe it. It was inevitable that they should make that claim sooner or later: the logic of their position demanded it.”
-George Orwell, 1984
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Reply #224 posted 10/29/19 7:30am

maplenpg

avatar

DiminutiveRocker said:

maplenpg said:

Even if you ignore the environmental issue, for cars to be more economic should be a good thing. For cars to emit less carbon dioxide should be a good thing. For cars to be looking at alternatives to fossil fuels should be a good thing. I don't understand those who fight progress, even if they don't agree with some of the reasons behind the progress.


Exactly.


Since we can control that much, we should!


FACT: the air qulaity in Cali is BETTER since these fuel economies have been put into place. If we can get better performance out of our vehicles and eliminate 6 billions tons of carbon dioxide then we should do it. More hybrids! More electric cars! More fuel efficient cars!

Yup. I'm not sure about America, but they are still really expensive over here, and the batteries still need improving further. When the price comes down, and people trust electric cars for long distances, I think/hope we'll see them take off.

The Org is my playground and y'all are my playmates.
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Reply #225 posted 10/29/19 7:39am

DiminutiveRock
er

avatar

maplenpg said:

DiminutiveRocker said:


Exactly.


Since we can control that much, we should!


FACT: the air qulaity in Cali is BETTER since these fuel economies have been put into place. If we can get better performance out of our vehicles and eliminate 6 billions tons of carbon dioxide then we should do it. More hybrids! More electric cars! More fuel efficient cars!

Yup. I'm not sure about America, but they are still really expensive over here, and the batteries still need improving further. When the price comes down, and people trust electric cars for long distances, I think/hope we'll see them take off.


nod They are coming down in price and certainly they can be leased and then sold as pre-owned certified cars for even less. Even the cheapest Tesla is comparable in pricing to a standard gas fueled auto.


I grew up in Cali - all these emissions auto laws have HELPED the air quality! Los Angeles buses run on renewable natural gas and eliminating just those emissions has been amazing. Due to the greed of the gas, rubber and auto industries California (Who Framed Roger Rabbit?) is a car culture and anything we can do to make the air cleaner for our children should be welcomed. It is PROGRESS.

“In the end the Party would announce that two and two made five, and you would have to believe it. It was inevitable that they should make that claim sooner or later: the logic of their position demanded it.”
-George Orwell, 1984
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Reply #226 posted 10/29/19 7:47am

poppys

TweetyV6 said:

maplenpg said:

When you consider we've only been using plastic for a relatively short time, it's really frightening. I am now actively and consciously trying to reduce my plastic use. I'd be all for laws forcing plastic reduction onto companies ASAP.


And that's good. BUT

What people don't tell you is that eventually the plastic will be 'digested' and transformed mostly into CO2.


BUT

Meanwhile, this is our world. Turtles think plastic bags are jellyfish, etceteraetceteraetcetera. It amazes me the hurt, pain and tragedy people try to explain away with SCIENCE and a few thousand years.

See the source image

"if you can't clap on the one, then don't clap at all"
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Reply #227 posted 10/29/19 11:38pm

TweetyV6

avatar

DiminutiveRocker said:

maplenpg said:

Even if you ignore the environmental issue, for cars to be more economic should be a good thing. For cars to emit less carbon dioxide should be a good thing. For cars to be looking at alternatives to fossil fuels should be a good thing. I don't understand those who fight progress, even if they don't agree with some of the reasons behind the progress.


Exactly.


Since we can control that much, we should!

Bollocks.
The effort (money) it takes is not worth it as it will have 0,0 effect.
With all that money spent, you can do better things than think humans can influence the climate.


FACT: the air qulaity in Cali is BETTER since these fuel economies have been put into place. If we can get better performance out of our vehicles and eliminate 6 billions tons of carbon dioxide then we should do it. More hybrids! More electric cars! More fuel efficient cars!


More fuel efficient cars. That's the only reasonable otion. The combustion engine has not yet reached it's optimum. There are several ways to improve it (e.g. varaible compression) which still have their technical challenges.

Electric cars are neither an option, the electricity has to come from somwhere and as long as that electricity is not generated through solar/wind/nuclear there still will be CO2 emissions.
Also electrical vehicles are heavy which inceases the road deterioration drastically.

Besides that, there are more, bigger sources for CO2 emissions than vehicles.
Look at how much energy is wasted by Nestlé in their soluble coffee factory in Derbishire, UK. For fucking soluble coffee that tastes like crap.


Oh and if you want a 'sustainable' source for energy: NULCLEAR is the only option.

The man of science has learned to believe in justification, not by faith, but by verification - Thomas Henry Huxley
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Reply #228 posted 10/29/19 11:42pm

TweetyV6

avatar

poppys said:

TweetyV6 said:


And that's good. BUT

What people don't tell you is that eventually the plastic will be 'digested' and transformed mostly into CO2.


BUT

Meanwhile, this is our world. Turtles think plastic bags are jellyfish, etceteraetceteraetcetera. It amazes me the hurt, pain and tragedy people try to explain away with SCIENCE and a few thousand years.

See the source image

As I said, I'm not against using less plastic. And yes, it hurts to see animals like that. But also keep in mind that this is an exception. Fortunately, this is not common practice.

The man of science has learned to believe in justification, not by faith, but by verification - Thomas Henry Huxley
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Reply #229 posted 10/29/19 11:51pm

TweetyV6

avatar

maplenpg said:

TweetyV6 said:

In the mean time, the next big issue has (silently) developed.

A friend of mine works with the Fraunhofer Society, a highly respected Research Institute in Germany where they are looking at what to do with the blades of wind turbines after these have become obsolete.

The first bigger wind turbine parks in Germany reached an in service life time of 20 years, which is the time at which the governmental funding stops and maintenance & repair costs of these turbines exceeds the income the turbines generate.

In other words, economically they become obsolete.

Now they are being dismantled but the big issue is that the blades are made from (glass or carbon) fiber reinforced epoxy resin.

There is no technology (yet) which somehow makes the material re-usable.

And since the blades are too many & too big to put into a landfill, these now are destroyed by literally blowing them up (under water) to pieces small enough to put them in a landfill.

I know you love your journal articles Tweety wink


https://www.tandfonline.c...19.1639967


Unfortunately, it first needs to become a problem before people are thinking about adequate alternatives.

It will take a while before this new technology will be itroduced. If at all (it needs to go through the approval process before being used commercially, test so far are encouraging, but only on lab scale)
Many wind turbines will be errected in the mean time and have to be disposed off in the next 20-25 years.

Besides that, wind turbines aren't the solution.
They only exist because of governmental funding. Not because they are economically viable.

The man of science has learned to believe in justification, not by faith, but by verification - Thomas Henry Huxley
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Reply #230 posted 10/30/19 12:03am

TweetyV6

avatar

maplenpg said:

DiminutiveRocker said:


Exactly.


Since we can control that much, we should!


FACT: the air qulaity in Cali is BETTER since these fuel economies have been put into place. If we can get better performance out of our vehicles and eliminate 6 billions tons of carbon dioxide then we should do it. More hybrids! More electric cars! More fuel efficient cars!

Yup. I'm not sure about America, but they are still really expensive over here, and the batteries still need improving further. When the price comes down, and people trust electric cars for long distances, I think/hope we'll see them take off.


And even then... zoom out, look at the bigger picture.
Asume all non-electrial cars are replaced by electrical cars; majority of the people use their cars for commuting to/from work, so each workplace needs a big infrastructure for charging cars. Not there yet.
When people come home, they will hook up their car to the recharging station. Since the majority will come home somewhere between let's say 5-6.30pm, there will be an enormous power surge.
With the current infrastructure that would mean frequent blackouts.
And current resources are not fit to provide the additional amount of electricity required.

It all sounds so nice.... let's switch to electrical vehicles but noone seems to understand what it would take to make it possible.

The man of science has learned to believe in justification, not by faith, but by verification - Thomas Henry Huxley
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Reply #231 posted 10/30/19 6:56am

poppys

TweetyV6 said:

poppys said:


BUT

Meanwhile, this is our world. Turtles think plastic bags are jellyfish, etceteraetceteraetcetera. It amazes me the hurt, pain and tragedy people try to explain away with SCIENCE and a few thousand years.

See the source image

As I said, I'm not against using less plastic. And yes, it hurts to see animals like that. But also keep in mind that this is an exception. Fortunately, this is not common practice.


It's not a "practice", and it's very common. The oceans are still legally used as dumping grounds.
I lived in the Caribbean and have seen lots of this firsthand. Innocent animals are the victims.

"if you can't clap on the one, then don't clap at all"
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Reply #232 posted 10/30/19 7:20am

poppys

Just a rich girl abused by her parents, wanting only FAME & MONEY...

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2019/10/30/greta-thunberg-declines-nordic-council-environmental-prize-money/4095078002/

Greta Thunberg, the teen activist who has inspired millions to strike for action on climate change, doesn't want awards. She wants people to listen to science.

The 16-year-old Swede declined an environmental prize worth $52,000 the Nordic Council, a regional inter-parliamentary organization, awarded her.

"I want to thank the Nordic Council for this award. It is a huge honour. But the climate movement does not need any more awards," she wrote in an Instagram post on Tuesday. "What we need is for our politicians and the people in power (to) start to listen to the current, best available science."


"if you can't clap on the one, then don't clap at all"
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Reply #233 posted 10/30/19 7:34am

maplenpg

avatar

TweetyV6 said:

maplenpg said:

I know you love your journal articles Tweety wink


https://www.tandfonline.c...19.1639967


Unfortunately, it first needs to become a problem before people are thinking about adequate alternatives.

It will take a while before this new technology will be itroduced. If at all (it needs to go through the approval process before being used commercially, test so far are encouraging, but only on lab scale)
Many wind turbines will be errected in the mean time and have to be disposed off in the next 20-25 years.

Besides that, wind turbines aren't the solution.
They only exist because of governmental funding. Not because they are economically viable.

It may or may not surprise you to learn that I think nuclear power is probably the way forward. But I won't knock the wind farms, even if the turbines are broken most of the time round where I live.

The Org is my playground and y'all are my playmates.
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Reply #234 posted 10/30/19 7:35am

maplenpg

avatar

TweetyV6 said:

maplenpg said:

Yup. I'm not sure about America, but they are still really expensive over here, and the batteries still need improving further. When the price comes down, and people trust electric cars for long distances, I think/hope we'll see them take off.


And even then... zoom out, look at the bigger picture.
Asume all non-electrial cars are replaced by electrical cars; majority of the people use their cars for commuting to/from work, so each workplace needs a big infrastructure for charging cars. Not there yet.
When people come home, they will hook up their car to the recharging station. Since the majority will come home somewhere between let's say 5-6.30pm, there will be an enormous power surge.
With the current infrastructure that would mean frequent blackouts.
And current resources are not fit to provide the additional amount of electricity required.

It all sounds so nice.... let's switch to electrical vehicles but noone seems to understand what it would take to make it possible.

I think they do Tweety. We're still very much in infancy. I look forward to see what happens as electric cars mature.

The Org is my playground and y'all are my playmates.
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Reply #235 posted 10/30/19 7:37am

maplenpg

avatar

poppys said:

TweetyV6 said:

As I said, I'm not against using less plastic. And yes, it hurts to see animals like that. But also keep in mind that this is an exception. Fortunately, this is not common practice.


It's not a "practice", and it's very common. The oceans are still legally used as dumping grounds.
I lived in the Caribbean and have seen lots of this firsthand. Innocent animals are the victims.

Yup. And this is the visible plastic. Think of all the micro fragments of plastic they are finding inside fish nowadays. Fish that humans are destined to eat.

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Reply #236 posted 10/30/19 7:40am

jaawwnn

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Here's a story of people recyling wind turbines in 2019. It seems people know its a problem and are already addressing it.

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Reply #237 posted 10/30/19 7:49am

poppys

maplenpg said:

poppys said:


It's not a "practice", and it's very common. The oceans are still legally used as dumping grounds.
I lived in the Caribbean and have seen lots of this firsthand. Innocent animals are the victims.


Yup. And this is the visible plastic. Think of all the micro fragments of plastic they are finding inside fish nowadays. Fish that humans are destined to eat.


Yes. There are plenty of photos of dead animals full of plastic too. That hurts me more than thinking about humans. Especially those at the top of the food chain who are responsible or complicit in our own demise from pollution.

"if you can't clap on the one, then don't clap at all"
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Reply #238 posted 10/30/19 11:55pm

TweetyV6

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maplenpg said:

TweetyV6 said:


And even then... zoom out, look at the bigger picture.
Asume all non-electrial cars are replaced by electrical cars; majority of the people use their cars for commuting to/from work, so each workplace needs a big infrastructure for charging cars. Not there yet.
When people come home, they will hook up their car to the recharging station. Since the majority will come home somewhere between let's say 5-6.30pm, there will be an enormous power surge.
With the current infrastructure that would mean frequent blackouts.
And current resources are not fit to provide the additional amount of electricity required.

It all sounds so nice.... let's switch to electrical vehicles but noone seems to understand what it would take to make it possible.

I think they do Tweety. We're still very much in infancy. I look forward to see what happens as electric cars mature.


They (as in politicians) don't. They haven't got the slightes clue

Read this (I put this on Facebook a copuple of weeks ago):

Netto Zero CO2


Frans Timmermans was on the loose again.


Our freshly appointed EU Super Commissioner for Climate, with Diederik Samsom by his side (like a sort of inverse Don Quixote & Sancho Panza; not fighting against but for windmills), he cannot of course be inferior to American democrats with their Green New Deal.

So he states: By 2030, the EU must have reduced its CO2 emissions by 55%.

Net, I assume, because the rest is an accounting trick.

What does that really mean?
In 2018, 1,688 mtoe (million tonnes of oil equivalent) of energy were used in the EU.
1,263 mtoe of these came from burning fossil fuels; oil (derivatives), gas and coal. (https://www.bp.com/)
Suppose that demand remains the same until 2030 (which is unlikely, but hey...)

If Franky gets his way, then a energy capacity of 695 mtoe must com from nuclear or "renewable"

What is needed for this?

A nuclear power plant produces approximately 1 mtoe of energy per year. (Reference: Turkey Point, Florida)
For those who think wind turbines are a wonderful alternative: 1 mtoe requires approximately 2000 large (2.5 MW) wind turbines.

To achieve the goal of 55% CO2 reduction in the next 10 years, or 3650 days, this would mean:
Either 1 nuclear power plant or 380 wind turbines must become operational every 5 days.

Oh and about 220 million EU households need to get rid of gas / coal / oil / wood fired heating & stoves
That is more than 60,000 PER DAY

I leave it up to your judgment whether this is feasible or not.

The man of science has learned to believe in justification, not by faith, but by verification - Thomas Henry Huxley
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Reply #239 posted 10/31/19 12:57am

maplenpg

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^^^quick response as I have a very busy day ahead. First, the target of 55% reduction is a reduction 55% since 1990. The EU is already on course to overshoot it's current target of 40% (to achieve around 45%). Therefore this new target is only an extra 10% on top of what the EU is currently set to achieve.

Also it is not as straightforward as just replacing 1 mtoe with just nuclear or wind, that is far too simplistic. Other things need to be taken into account such as the food we eat, transport use, the technologies we use, etc...etc...

Anyway, gotta run.





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