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Reply #120 posted 09/26/19 1:49pm

Ugot2shakesumt
hin

benni said:

luv4u said:


I assume that to protect the identity of this whistle blower, and if they get to come forward and testify that this may be held behind closed doors. I assume no photograhy/video will not be allowed.

This so their identity will never be known and so will be protected.



New York Times has already outed that the whistleblower was a CIA agent that was stationed at the White House during that time, but is no longer there.

.

i suppose its best not to speculate about who. I mean by the media as EVERYTHING eventually comes out.

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Reply #121 posted 09/26/19 1:53pm

SoulAlive

I applaud the whistleblower for being really brave and revealing this important information.Trump has done alot of unlawful things,but this time he has gone too far and needs to be held accountable.He thinks that he is above the law.

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Reply #122 posted 09/26/19 2:08pm

Ugot2shakesumt
hin

It's safe to say Bill Barr's days are numbered. That's at least twice that he has acted possibly illegally in the interest of the president instead of the country.

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Reply #123 posted 09/26/19 2:18pm

luv4u

Moderator

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moderator

benni said:

luv4u said:


I assume that to protect the identity of this whistle blower, and if they get to come forward and testify that this may be held behind closed doors. I assume no photograhy/video will not be allowed.

This so their identity will never be known and so will be protected.



New York Times has already outed that the whistleblower was a CIA agent that was stationed at the White House during that time, but is no longer there.


eek


https://thehill.com/polic...ia-officer

"Publishing details about the whistleblower will only lead to identification of someone, whether our client or the wrong person, as the whistleblower," said Mark Zaid, one of the whistleblower's other attorneys. "This will place this individual in a much more dangerous situation, not only in their professional world but also their possible personal safety."




Well then it is possible that that WH would know who it is???

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Reply #124 posted 09/26/19 2:42pm

RodeoSchro

Ugot2shakesumthin said:

With how unhinged Trump followers are, I worry about the whistleblower after Trump threatened him.




What's bizarre is that if I read - and heard - the statements of unrepentant serial adulterer Donald J. Trump correctly, he didn't threaten the whistleblower. He threatened the person or people who spoke with the whistleblower. That's whom he referred to as "spies".

I can't deside if it was simply another word salad from our stable genius of a president, or if he was trying to play four-dimensional chess of some kind.

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Reply #125 posted 09/26/19 2:47pm

Ugot2shakesumt
hin

RodeoSchro said:

Ugot2shakesumthin said:

With how unhinged Trump followers are, I worry about the whistleblower after Trump threatened him.




What's bizarre is that if I read - and heard - the statements of unrepentant serial adulterer Donald J. Trump correctly, he didn't threaten the whistleblower. He threatened the person or people who spoke with the whistleblower. That's whom he referred to as "spies".

I can't deside if it was simply another word salad from our stable genius of a president, or if he was trying to play four-dimensional chess of some kind.

Witness tampering and threats by a sitting US president. How insane is all this?

.

before he was elected, i wondered if he would normalize this toxic repulsiveness, this is far worse than anyone could have possibly imagined. This is insane.

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Reply #126 posted 09/26/19 3:32pm

benni

avatar

luv4u said:

benni said:


eek


https://thehill.com/polic...ia-officer

"Publishing details about the whistleblower will only lead to identification of someone, whether our client or the wrong person, as the whistleblower," said Mark Zaid, one of the whistleblower's other attorneys. "This will place this individual in a much more dangerous situation, not only in their professional world but also their possible personal safety."




Well then it is possible that that WH would know who it is???



If not yet, after the NYTimes article came out, identifying them as a CIA that had been stationed in the White House at that time, but no longer is, I'm sure by the process of elimination, they'll figure it out. When they do, I expect Trump to put that person on blast, thereby compromising that person and placing them in danger.

@GeorgeTrue1 -- Alex's Jones's Razor - it's not that sharp
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Reply #127 posted 09/26/19 3:41pm

RodeoSchro

benni said:

luv4u said:



If not yet, after the NYTimes article came out, identifying them as a CIA that had been stationed in the White House at that time, but no longer is, I'm sure by the process of elimination, they'll figure it out. When they do, I expect Trump to put that person on blast, thereby compromising that person and placing them in danger.



Just like he did with Rep. Omar.

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Reply #128 posted 09/26/19 3:57pm

poppys

RodeoSchro said:

benni said:

luv4u said:



If not yet, after the NYTimes article came out, identifying them as a CIA that had been stationed in the White House at that time, but no longer is, I'm sure by the process of elimination, they'll figure it out. When they do, I expect Trump to put that person on blast, thereby compromising that person and placing them in danger.



Just like he did with Rep. Omar.

nod Valerie Plame.

He talked about killing people at a private event today - with children in the room.

“I want to know who’s the person, who’s the person who gave the whistleblower the information? Because that’s close to a spy,” Trump said. “You know what we used to do in the old days when we were smart? Right? The spies and treason, we used to handle it a little differently than we do now.”

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Reply #129 posted 09/26/19 4:22pm

luv4u

Moderator

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moderator

benni said:

luv4u said:



If not yet, after the NYTimes article came out, identifying them as a CIA that had been stationed in the White House at that time, but no longer is, I'm sure by the process of elimination, they'll figure it out. When they do, I expect Trump to put that person on blast, thereby compromising that person and placing them in danger.


Yes, I was thinking that too.


I figure that after they do testify they would have to enter witness protection.


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Reply #130 posted 09/26/19 5:13pm

OnlyNDaUsa

avatar

poppys said:

RodeoSchro said:



Just like he did with Rep. Omar.

nod Valerie Plame.

He talked about killing people at a private event today - with children in the room.

“I want to know who’s the person, who’s the person who gave the whistleblower the information? Because that’s close to a spy,” Trump said. “You know what we used to do in the old days when we were smart? Right? The spies and treason, we used to handle it a little differently than we do now.”

val was not covert and the leak came from her husband's bio on his web site... and all that was said (which is not a crime)some reporter "I head she was CIA" Dick (i think) "yeah I heard the same" (or whatever) but she was not ever nor was she on a path to ever been covert. (she traveled under an assumed name to keep her passport clean which is common)


The Spike is Real Wear a Mask (this is not the 2nd Wave)
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Reply #131 posted 09/26/19 11:05pm

benni

avatar

OnlyNDaUsa said:

poppys said:

nod Valerie Plame.

He talked about killing people at a private event today - with children in the room.

“I want to know who’s the person, who’s the person who gave the whistleblower the information? Because that’s close to a spy,” Trump said. “You know what we used to do in the old days when we were smart? Right? The spies and treason, we used to handle it a little differently than we do now.”

val was not covert and the leak came from her husband's bio on his web site... and all that was said (which is not a crime)some reporter "I head she was CIA" Dick (i think) "yeah I heard the same" (or whatever) but she was not ever nor was she on a path to ever been covert. (she traveled under an assumed name to keep her passport clean which is common)




On July 14, 2003, Robert Novak, journalist for The Washington Post, using information obtained from Richard Armitage, Karl Rove, and Scooter Libby, revealed in his column her identity as a CIA operative.

Legal documents published in the course of the CIA leak grand jury investigation, United States v. Libby, and Congressional investigations, established her classified employment as a covert officer for the CIA at the time when Novak's column was published in July 2003.


You sure you don't want to change your statement?



WASHINGTON - An unclassified summary of outed CIA officer Valerie Plame's employment history at the spy agency, disclosed for the first time today in a court filing by Special Counsel Patrick Fitzgerald, indicates that Plame was "covert" when her name became public in July 2003.

The summary is part of an attachment to Fitzgerald's memorandum to the court supporting his recommendation that I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, Vice President Cheney's former top aide, spend 2-1/2 to 3 years in prison for obstructing the CIA leak investigation.

The nature of Plame's CIA employment never came up in Libby's perjury and obstruction of justice trial.

https://web.archive.org/w.../18924679/


https://web.archive.org/w...-43341.pdf

Statement of Rep. Henry A. \ilaxman Chairman, Committee on Oversight and Government Reform Hearing on Disclosure of CIA Agent Valerie Plame \ililson's ldentity and White House Procedures for Safeguarding Classified Information March 16,2007

Today, the Committee is holding a hearing to examine how the White House handles highly classified information. In June and July 2003, one of the nation's most carefully guarded secrets - the identity of covert CIA agent Valerie Plame'Wilson - was repeatedly revealed by White House officials to members of the media. This was an extraordinarily serious breach of our national security. President George W. Bush's father, the former President Bush, said - and I quote - ((l þ¿vs nothing but contempt and anger for those who ... exposfe] the name of our sources. They are, in my view, the most insidious, of traitors."

@GeorgeTrue1 -- Alex's Jones's Razor - it's not that sharp
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Reply #132 posted 09/26/19 11:09pm

benni

avatar

OnlyNDaUsa said:

poppys said:

nod Valerie Plame.

He talked about killing people at a private event today - with children in the room.

“I want to know who’s the person, who’s the person who gave the whistleblower the information? Because that’s close to a spy,” Trump said. “You know what we used to do in the old days when we were smart? Right? The spies and treason, we used to handle it a little differently than we do now.”

val was not covert and the leak came from her husband's bio on his web site... and all that was said (which is not a crime)some reporter "I head she was CIA" Dick (i think) "yeah I heard the same" (or whatever) but she was not ever nor was she on a path to ever been covert. (she traveled under an assumed name to keep her passport clean which is common)



https://web.archive.org/w...-19288.pdf

@GeorgeTrue1 -- Alex's Jones's Razor - it's not that sharp
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Reply #133 posted 09/26/19 11:11pm

benni

avatar

OnlyNDaUsa said:

poppys said:

nod Valerie Plame.

He talked about killing people at a private event today - with children in the room.

“I want to know who’s the person, who’s the person who gave the whistleblower the information? Because that’s close to a spy,” Trump said. “You know what we used to do in the old days when we were smart? Right? The spies and treason, we used to handle it a little differently than we do now.”

val was not covert and the leak came from her husband's bio on his web site... and all that was said (which is not a crime)some reporter "I head she was CIA" Dick (i think) "yeah I heard the same" (or whatever) but she was not ever nor was she on a path to ever been covert. (she traveled under an assumed name to keep her passport clean which is common)


On March 16, 2007, at these hearings about the disclosure, Waxman read a statement about Plame's CIA career that had been cleared by CIA director Gen. Michael V. Hayden and the CIA, stating that she was undercover and that her employment status with the CIA was classified information prohibited from disclosure under Executive Order 12958.

Subsequent reports in various news accounts focused on the following parts of her testimony:

  • "My name and identity were carelessly and recklessly abused by senior government officials in the White House and state department"; this abuse occurred for "purely political reasons."[64]
  • After her identity was exposed by officials in the Bush administration, she had to leave the CIA: "I could no longer perform the work for which I had been highly trained."[65]
  • She did not select her husband for a CIA fact-finding trip to Niger, but an officer senior to her selected him and told her to ask her husband if he would consider it: "I did not recommend him. I did not suggest him. There was no nepotism involved. I did not have the authority [...]."[65]

[Edited 9/26/19 23:12pm]

@GeorgeTrue1 -- Alex's Jones's Razor - it's not that sharp
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Reply #134 posted 09/27/19 3:45am

cborgman

avatar

We've corrected only TONS of times about Valerie Plame. He feels he knows more about the CIA than the actual CIA head, and insists on selling his false narrative, no matter how many times said narrative has been proven false.

same with the loooong expired yellowcake found in iraq that dates back to the late 80s/early 90s. no matter how scientifically impossible it is for saddam to have used it 2001, only still repeatedly claimed its proof saddam was amassing WMDs even thought is physically impossible to use expired yellowcake.

same when he claimed gabby giffords was killed by an obsessed fan who wanted to help, and that her staff knew of him and rejected him. not a single word of that is true or factual, but... only gonna only.

same when he recently claimed deer rifles come with 100 round magazines. false, but... only gonna only.

or today when he claimed millions will be harmed by impeaching trump. not even remotely true, but... only gonna only.

and so on and so on and so on, ad naseum.

Only gonna only, no matter what the truth is. its just how he rolls. correcting him in his lies only makes him whine about how we are all terrible bullies, because there is no level he wont sink to rather than admit he is wrong.

only gonna only.


.
[Edited 9/27/19 4:34am]
Power tends to corrupt; absolute power corrupts absolutely. - Lord Acton
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Reply #135 posted 09/27/19 5:00am

benni

avatar

cborgman said:

We've corrected only TONS of times about Valerie Plame. He feels he knows more about the CIA than the actual CIA head, and insists on selling his false narrative, no matter how many times said narrative has been proven false. same with the loooong expired yellowcake found in iraq that dates back to the late 80s/early 90s. no matter how scientifically impossible it is for saddam to have used it 2001, only still repeatedly claimed its proof saddam was amassing WMDs even thought is physically impossible to use expired yellowcake. same when he claimed gabby giffords was killed by an obsessed fan who wanted to help, and that her staff knew of him and rejected him. not a single word of that is true or factual, but... only gonna only. same when he recently claimed deer rifles come with 100 round magazines. false, but... only gonna only. or today when he claimed millions will be harmed by impeaching trump. not even remotely true, but... only gonna only. and so on and so on and so on, ad naseum. Only gonna only, no matter what the truth is. its just how he rolls. correcting him in his lies only makes him whine about how we are all terrible bullies, because there is no level he wont sink to rather than admit he is wrong. only gonna only. . [Edited 9/27/19 4:34am]



No wonder he likes Trump so much, if that's true. Two peas in a single pod. eek

@GeorgeTrue1 -- Alex's Jones's Razor - it's not that sharp
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Reply #136 posted 09/27/19 5:00am

benni

avatar

Just going to post this here too: BREAKING: Lawrence O'Donnell MSNBC is reporting that former Speaker of the House, Paul Ryan, today told executives at Fox News to prepare for 'the end of the Trump presidency.'

@GeorgeTrue1 -- Alex's Jones's Razor - it's not that sharp
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Reply #137 posted 09/27/19 5:51am

13cjk13

avatar

This, from Heather Cox Richardson. Beautiful.

Nothing happened today; you can go to bed.

😂😂😂😂

Sorry. Have been breakneck busy all day and my laptop is still useless so am being flippant as I write from my phone. In fact, though, today was less confusing, but even more shocking, than yesterday.

The day started with the release of the whistle blower complaint. The person began by saying that s/he was alerting authorities that Trump was soliciting foreign interference in the 2020 election— this is a crime— and that Trump’s personal lawyer Rudy Giuliani and Attorney General William Barr were implicated in the scheme. The whistleblower then laid out how Trump had tried to strong arm Ukraine president Zelensky into smearing the Bidens. Then, s/he said, White House officials had buried the tape of the call (there is one, apparently) on a secret server where national security secrets were hidden. This was not the first time such a politically damaging tape had been hidden as a state secret, the complaint alleged.

Not only did this complaint suggest a widespread conspiracy to use the White House to steal the 2020 election, and revealed that the White House has been hiding potentially illegal contacts with foreign official, but also the close correlation between the phone call notes released yesterday and this complaint undercut Trump supporters’ argument that the whistleblower was a second-hand reporter whose account was inaccurate.

The story was believable, at the same time that the fact that so many people knew and only one person spoke up to stop this illegal activity was astonishing.

Then, shortly after the public release of the complaint, acting Director of National Intelligence, Joseph Maguire, who has been in his position a little more than a month, appeared before the House Intelligence Committee to explain why he had not sent the complaint to Congress as the law required. The hearing was widely televised, and Maguire’s testimony was deeply problematic. He seemed out of his depth. He admitted that withholding the complaint was unprecedented. Then he allowed that, when confronted with a complaint that included the attorney general, he had immediately taken it directly to Barr’s office, which had overruled the determination of the Intelligence Community Inspector General that the complaint was credible and urgent.

Between the complaint and the testimony support for an impeachment inquiry climbed fast among congressional Democrats. Republicans either said they had not read the whistleblower report (it is nine pages long and organized by bullet points) or tried to deflect attention to alleged Democratic wrongdoing, but more telling was that virtually none of them defended Trump’s actions.

For their part, Trump and Giuliani poured fuel on the fire. Trump spoke to a private group today suggesting that the whistleblower was a traitor and hinted that s/he should be killed- someone taped the speech and released it. Giuliani seems unhinged by the idea he isn’t the hero of this situation, as he yelled at a reporter this afternoon. Apparently furious at the suggestion that he was a rogue agent when he insisted he was working for the State Department, this evening he tweeted out what he alleges are texts from a special agent of the State Department- a lobbyist- interfacing between him and Ukraine officials. If true, these texts implicate folks in the State Department in this mess.

What is the takeaway here? It seems likely that Trump is at the center of criminal activity, and there are a number of people involved. The whistleblower gave the House a roadmap of people to interview and events to investigate. As the situation becomes more and more scandalous, people around Trump are scrambling to prove they are not involved, and as they do so, they are turning on each other. At the same time, people who previously felt unable to call out bad behavior are now jumping into the scrum, so, for example, this evening saw a story emerge that bankers had flagged Jared Kushner’s finances back in 2016-2017 for potential illegal activity.

It is a train wreck, but the lines of it are becoming clearer. Remember, the Trump era has become famous for its Friday night news dumps. Let’s hope they give us a break and take this week off.

No notes today because I’m on this tiny phone. Will post tomorrow evening when I get back to a place where I can get a laptop charger. Hang on there everyone. The world is changing. Keep calling your reps.

"hey if you found out someone gave you a fake $20 would you be mad?"It is in fact #TRUTH
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Reply #138 posted 09/27/19 7:13am

poppys

benni said:

Just going to post this here too: BREAKING: Lawrence O'Donnell MSNBC is reporting that former Speaker of the House, Paul Ryan, today told executives at Fox News to prepare for 'the end of the Trump presidency.'


That's great but Paul Ryan is the devil. He just moved to Washington this summer and will be running for President. If he wins he will wage a full on war on Medicaid, Medicare and any Social Service still standing. We will likely be seeing more and more of him, ugh.


https://thinkprogress.org/paul-ryan-tax-cuts-medicare-medicaid-f87d810ad5b9/

Paul Ryan admits the GOP will gut Medicare and Medicaid to pay for tax cuts

GOP lawmakers are driving up the deficit, then claiming the deficit's too high to support safety net programs for poor people

Republicans in Congress are openly admitting they plan to use their tax reform bill to justify slashing funding for essential social programs like Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and food stamps.

The bill — which is expected to balloon the national deficit by at least $1 trillion, and which only benefits the country’s wealthiest in the long-term — has not yet been reconciled or signed. But Republicans aren’t wasting any time laying out what they see as the next step.

[Edited 9/27/19 7:24am]

"if you can't clap on the one, then don't clap at all"
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Reply #139 posted 09/27/19 8:20am

2freaky4church
1

avatar

Big nothingburger.

All you others say Hell Yea!! woot!
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Reply #140 posted 09/27/19 8:46am

poppys

2freaky4church1 said:

Big nothingburger.


Yep. That's what all the people in jail from the Mueller investigation are eating.

"if you can't clap on the one, then don't clap at all"
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Reply #141 posted 09/27/19 9:33am

cborgman

avatar

2freaky4church1 said:

Big nothingburger.


falloff
Power tends to corrupt; absolute power corrupts absolutely. - Lord Acton
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Reply #142 posted 09/27/19 10:04am

2elijah

avatar

poppys said:



benni said:


Just going to post this here too: BREAKING: Lawrence O'Donnell MSNBC is reporting that former Speaker of the House, Paul Ryan, today told executives at Fox News to prepare for 'the end of the Trump presidency.'




That's great but Paul Ryan is the devil. He just moved to Washington this summer and will be running for President. If he wins he will wage a full on war on Medicaid, Medicare and any Social Service still standing. We will likely be seeing more and more of him, ugh.


https://thinkprogress.org/paul-ryan-tax-cuts-medicare-medicaid-f87d810ad5b9/


Paul Ryan admits the GOP will gut Medicare and Medicaid to pay for tax cuts



GOP lawmakers are driving up the deficit, then claiming the deficit's too high to support safety net programs for poor people


Republicans in Congress are openly admitting they plan to use their tax reform bill to justify slashing funding for essential social programs like Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and food stamps.



The bill — which is expected to balloon the national deficit by at least $1 trillion, and which only benefits the country’s wealthiest in the long-term — has not yet been reconciled or signed. But Republicans aren’t wasting any time laying out what they see as the next step.

[Edited 9/27/19 7:24am]


Oh hell no. Talk about the devil, because he’s no different from trump.
[Edited 9/27/19 10:05am]
Always smile in the face of adversity. smile
#NOFEAR
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Reply #143 posted 09/27/19 10:15am

Ugot2shakesumt
hin

Around 300 former national security officials and ex-White House staff sign open letter accusing Trump of 'unconscionable abuse of power' over Ukraine call

https://www.businessinsid...ent-2019-9


Around 300 former national security officials, ambassadors, and ex-White House staff have signed a letter that says President Donald Trump appears to have committed "an unconscionable abuse of power" in a call with the leader of Ukraine, and applauds the launch of impeachment proceedings against him.

The statement is signed by former intelligence officers, ambassadors, secretaries of state, major generals, chiefs of staff, and advisors from the country's leading defense and security bodies including the CIA, Department of Defense, and the State Department.

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Reply #144 posted 09/27/19 10:26am

poppys

2elijah said:

poppys said:


That's great but Paul Ryan is the devil. He just moved to Washington this summer and will be running for President. If he wins he will wage a full on war on Medicaid, Medicare and any Social Service still standing. We will likely be seeing more and more of him, ugh.


https://thinkprogress.org/paul-ryan-tax-cuts-medicare-medicaid-f87d810ad5b9/

Paul Ryan admits the GOP will gut Medicare and Medicaid to pay for tax cuts

GOP lawmakers are driving up the deficit, then claiming the deficit's too high to support safety net programs for poor people

Republicans in Congress are openly admitting they plan to use their tax reform bill to justify slashing funding for essential social programs like Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and food stamps.

The bill — which is expected to balloon the national deficit by at least $1 trillion, and which only benefits the country’s wealthiest in the long-term — has not yet been reconciled or signed. But Republicans aren’t wasting any time laying out what they see as the next step.



Oh hell no. Talk about the devil, because he’s no different from trump.


Agree. Ryan only wants Trump out so he can take his place. And he's way more versed on how to break the system. He will use Trump's cracks to get it done even faster with some "emergency" BS.

"if you can't clap on the one, then don't clap at all"
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Reply #145 posted 09/27/19 10:29am

cborgman

avatar

poppys said:

2elijah said:

poppys said:

Oh hell no. Talk about the devil, because he’s no different from trump.


Agree. Ryan only wants Trump out so he can take his place. And he's way more versed on how to break the system. He will use Trump's cracks to get it done even faster with some "emergency" BS.

ryan's retired

Power tends to corrupt; absolute power corrupts absolutely. - Lord Acton
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Reply #146 posted 09/27/19 10:40am

poppys

cborgman said:

poppys said:


Agree. Ryan only wants Trump out so he can take his place. And he's way more versed on how to break the system. He will use Trump's cracks to get it done even faster with some "emergency" BS.


ryan's retired


Because he wants to run for Pres. Already out there for awhile now. He just moved the fam to Washington this summer.

"if you can't clap on the one, then don't clap at all"
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Reply #147 posted 09/27/19 10:47am

cborgman

avatar

poppys said:

cborgman said:


ryan's retired


Because he wants to run for Pres. Already out there for awhile now. He just moved the fam to Washington this summer.

oh! i had no idea.

Power tends to corrupt; absolute power corrupts absolutely. - Lord Acton
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Reply #148 posted 09/27/19 10:51am

Musicslave

luv4u said:

benni said:

luv4u said:



If not yet, after the NYTimes article came out, identifying them as a CIA that had been stationed in the White House at that time, but no longer is, I'm sure by the process of elimination, they'll figure it out. When they do, I expect Trump to put that person on blast, thereby compromising that person and placing them in danger.


Yes, I was thinking that too.


I figure that after they do testify they would have to enter witness protection.


-

I guess we're all thinking alike on this subject. I wouldn't trust the GOP to keep the identity classified. Best believe trump is already plotting to have at least ONE person that's a part of that committee to leak the name of the whistleblower. All he needs is one.

-

If I was the WB (Whistleblower), I would only appear in a disguise or by live video feed, change my voice, etc. I wouldn't trust the GOP on that committee. trump is ruthless.

-

Public Enemy said, "Can't Truss It" lol

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Reply #149 posted 09/27/19 10:52am

Musicslave

poppys said:

cborgman said:


ryan's retired


Because he wants to run for Pres. Already out there for awhile now. He just moved the fam to Washington this summer.

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Bad move for him if he does try to run. He blew his chances when he wouldn't stand up to trump WHILE HE WAS SPEAKER OF THE FREAKIN HOUSE.

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Forums > Politics & Religion > Whistleblower Complaint Against Trump Reportedly Involves Ukraine