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Reply #90 posted 08/25/19 7:39pm

jjhunsecker

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guitarslinger44 said:

jjhunsecker said:



Were the killers of Matthew Sheppard "Christians"? How about most gay bashers in America?

Or is it the usual case: if a crazy Muslim does something horrible, it's because he's Muslim. But if a crazy White Christian does something horrible, it's because he is crazy, and nobody mentions his race or religion as a factor?


This is just whataboutism. The thread is about Islam and islam in the 2010s. Bringing up stuff like that (I read up on that case and there's no evidence I could find that there was any religious motivation for the crime) has nothing to do with what were talking about.


You missed my point.
I'm against madness and intolerance from ALL religions. Islam has promoted some fucked up things. But I'm willing to see the bigger picture, and also examine history
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Reply #91 posted 08/25/19 7:42pm

2elijah

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guitarslinger44 said:

2elijah said:


Nope, it’s just more about being fair in your judgement.


How is it an unfair judgement when Islam is the only religion killing gays and women basically because they're gays and women in 2019?

If these were white people you'd be throwing a fit. Speaking of "being fair in judgement..."



You failed at that last statement in your post, because I wouldn’t be throwing a fit. Why? Because Actually, there exists a number of white people, in neo-nazi type hate groups, who commit hate crimes, including against the LGBT community. It’s all documented in America’s past and present. Now is it fair to say that I am right about that or do you prefer to accuse me of lying?

See, you don’t want to play tit-for-tat, but you are, because you don’t like that you’ve been told, that often times, many in this country single out Islam as though it’s the worst religion on earth, and the only religion that has some bad apples existing in it, and using it to justify their crimes, including committing crimes, against the LGBT community.

But then you want to play blind to the same discrimination and heinous crimes committed everyday, against the LGBT community, by Christians, who hold those biases based on their Christian beliefs or how/what they’ve been raised, to believe about the LGBT community, that caused the bias to exist towards that community in the first place.

Anyway, that’s it for now. I’m out. Carry on.
[Edited 8/26/19 6:47am]
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Reply #92 posted 08/25/19 7:44pm

jjhunsecker

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guitarslinger44 said:

I think it's time for some facts and numbers. I'll have more tomorrow, but this is just to get those of you willing to read started.

12 Countries That Will Kill You For Being LGBTQ:' https://www.advocate.com/...bt#slide-0

(Spoiler Alert: they're all Muslim countries)


These are fucked up places where they would kill someone for adultery as well, or anything else they disagree with or find offensive. Essentially I'm AGREEING with you...

But I'm not going to forget history either, or let other religions off the hook either
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Reply #93 posted 08/25/19 7:44pm

2elijah

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poppys said:



guitarslinger44 said:


I think it's time for some facts and numbers. I'll have more tomorrow, but this is just to get those of you willing to read started. 12 Countries That Will Kill You For Being LGBTQ:' https://www.advocate.com/...bt#slide-0 (Spoiler Alert: they're all Muslim countries)



Not only do I support LGBTQ rights, I've started threads about it.


guitarslinger44 said:

How is it an unfair judgement when Islam is the only religion killing gays and women basically because they're gays and women in 2019? If these were white people you'd be throwing a fit. Speaking of "being fair in judgement..."


How come you think white people aren't Muslims?


Exactly!! That’s another misconception some have of Muslims, yet don’t realize there are also many White, Black, Latino, etc., people all over the world who practice Islam. Malcolm X witnessed that.
[Edited 8/25/19 19:46pm]
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Reply #94 posted 08/25/19 7:46pm

jjhunsecker

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2elijah said:

guitarslinger44 said:



How is it an unfair judgement when Islam is the only religion killing gays and women basically because they're gays and women in 2019?

If these were white people you'd be throwing a fit. Speaking of "being fair in judgement..."



You failed at that last statement in our post, because I wouldn’t be throwing a fit. Why? Because Actually, there exists a number of white people, in neo-nazi type hate groups, who commit hate crimes, including against the LGBT community. It’s all documented in America’s past and present. Now is it fair to say that I am right about that or do you prefer to accuse me of lying?

See, you don’t want to play tit-for-tat, but you are, because you don’t like that you’ve been told, that often times, many in this country single out Islam as though it’s the worst religion on earth, and the only religion that has some bad apples existing in it, and using it to justify their crimes, including committing crimes, against the LGBT community.

But then you want to play blind to the same discrimination and heinous crimes committed everyday, against the LGBT community, by Christians, who hold those biases based on their Christian beliefs or how/what they’ve been raised, to believe about the LGBT community, that caused the bias to exist towards that community in the first place.

Anyway, that’s it for now. I’m out. Carry on.


Very true
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Reply #95 posted 08/25/19 7:46pm

OldFriends4Sal
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The thread is not about religions and gay/women issues. The thread is about Islam.

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Reply #96 posted 08/25/19 7:50pm

jjhunsecker

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Why limit it to one religion? Many religions have advocated hatred of homosexuals and discrimination against them, in varying degrees
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Reply #97 posted 08/25/19 7:56pm

OldFriends4Sal
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jjhunsecker said:

Why limit it to one religion? Many religions have advocated hatred of homosexuals and discrimination against them, in varying degrees

Because the OP titled the thread about Islam.

.

This is why these threads go nowhere. There are so many avenues of Islamic culture and ethnicity that we can discuss to gain a wider understanding. But we cannot if we discuss Buddism, Catholicism, Judiasm, African Australian S American Indigenous beliefs.

.

If someone wants to discuss Madhouse, why mix it up with 3rd Eye Girl, FourPlay and any other jazz group. Discuss Madhouse. It seems like this topic about Islam is uncomfortable with people posting. But it will focus on Islam. The OP titled it so, and guitarslinger44 asked specific questions about Islam.

.

The reaction "well what about X Y Z" is some kind of deflection. It almost seems persons, like those bringing up X Y Z, might be Muslim or lean toward their beliefs. Which is ok, just stay on the topic.

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Reply #98 posted 08/25/19 8:07pm

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https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/28/us/lgbt-muslims-pride-progress/index.html

In a survey of American Muslims, 0% identified as lesbian or gay.

Here's the story behind that statistic

(CNN)In the United States, you could count the number of mosques like Masjid al-Rabia on two hands. It's a small community built on "five pillars of inclusivity," including pledges to be "women-centered," anti-racist LGBTQ-affirming and welcoming to a variety of Islamic traditions.

Mahdia Lynn, a transgender woman, helped found the mosque in Chicago in 2016.
For several years, Lynn attended a mosque in a small conservative Muslim community in Oklahoma, where people believed she was a straight, cisgender woman.
"There was always the risk of being outed," said Lynn, a Shiite Muslim. "But at the time, I just wanted to focus on my faith."
There are a few mosques like Masjid al-Rabia around the world, notably in Berlin and Toronto. But the number of LGBT-affirming mosques and Islamic centers in the United States remains small.
Still, for many LGBT Muslims, coming out of the closet to their families and religious communities can be a fraught decision.
Ani Zonneveld says she receives calls regularly from young gay and lesbian Muslims who have been threatened by their family or are afraid to reveal their sexual identity.
"I tell them that, unless you have a fantastic relationship with your parents, keep it in the closet until you finish high school and can leave the house," said Zonneveld, who heads Muslims for Progressive Values.
Religious spaces can be just as alienating, Zonneveld said. "What we have seen is that LGBT Muslims are not comfortable going to a mosque, and if they do, they definitely keep closeted."
....


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Reply #99 posted 08/25/19 8:14pm

poppys

OldFriends4Sale said:

The thread is not about religions and gay/women issues. The thread is about Islam.


guitarslinger44 asked me mulitple times if I supported gay/womens rights. In this thread and the thread it sprang from. I answered him.

Really don't understand the need to be strictly reductive in an open discussion of what people think of Islam. Religion is the broader part of the topic. Islam doesn't exist in a religious vacuum by itself.

[Edited 8/25/19 20:18pm]

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Reply #100 posted 08/25/19 8:17pm

jjhunsecker

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If someone starts a thread called "Why do Hispanic men beat their women ", or "Why are Jewish women gold diggers ", wouldn't it be expected for some to say "Why just single out Hispanic men or Jewish women for behavior that lots of different types of people have also engaged in" ?
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Reply #101 posted 08/25/19 8:17pm

poppys

2elijah said:

guitarslinger44 said:

How is it an unfair judgement when Islam is the only religion killing gays and women basically because they're gays and women in 2019? If these were white people you'd be throwing a fit. Speaking of "being fair in judgement..."


You failed at that last statement in our post, because I wouldn’t be throwing a fit. Why? Because Actually, there exists a number of white people, in neo-nazi type hate groups, who commit hate crimes, including against the LGBT community. It’s all documented in America’s past and present. Now is it fair to say that I am right about that or do you prefer to accuse me of lying? See, you don’t want to play tit-for-tat, but you are, because you don’t like that you’ve been told, that often times, many in this country single out Islam as though it’s the worst religion on earth, and the only religion that has some bad apples existing in it, and using it to justify their crimes, including committing crimes, against the LGBT community. But then you want to play blind to the same discrimination and heinous crimes committed everyday, against the LGBT community, by Christians, who hold those biases based on their Christian beliefs or how/what they’ve been raised, to believe about the LGBT community, that caused the bias to exist towards that community in the first place. Anyway, that’s it for now. I’m out. Carry on.


Preach!

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Reply #102 posted 08/25/19 8:25pm

OldFriends4Sal
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jjhunsecker said:

If someone starts a thread called "Why do Hispanic men beat their women ", or "Why are Jewish women gold diggers ", wouldn't it be expected for some to say "Why just single out Hispanic men or Jewish women for behavior that lots of different types of people have also engaged in" ?

but it then just descends into side taking and petty fights. Why not get into why

the same as 'why do young men committ more crimes...' I think it is worth looking into, and you might have to bring up female crimes to see wha is/isn't really happening, but we can discuss issues revolving around men to get a wider understanding of this.

.

Same with this. I've watched this happen in P&R for a long time. If the topic was a christianity, people over all would not do the 'what about x y z' thing, they would go deep into history races scripture god aint real all of it...

.

There are 1000s of ethnic cultures in this world bring up every one in in a thread about Jewish women would be pointless.
.
I could have easily brought up homophobia in Black American communities. But it isn't about Black American communities. Unless they are Muslim or Islamic what is the point. It just would be a detractor.

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Reply #103 posted 08/25/19 8:28pm

poppys

jjhunsecker said:

If someone starts a thread called "Why do Hispanic men beat their women ", or "Why are Jewish women gold diggers ", wouldn't it be expected for some to say "Why just single out Hispanic men or Jewish women for behavior that lots of different types of people have also engaged in" ?T


The video in the OP touches on many things. A Christian pastor interviews the Imam.

I don't see the point of being so granular that we can't discuss the beach while we examine one grain of sand.

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Reply #104 posted 08/25/19 8:28pm

OldFriends4Sal
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poppys said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

The thread is not about religions and gay/women issues. The thread is about Islam.


guitarslinger44 asked me mulitple times if I supported gay/womens rights. In this thread and the thread it sprang from. I answered him.

Really don't understand the need to be strictly reductive in an open discussion of what people think of Islam. Religion is the broader part of the topic. Islam doesn't exist in a religious vacuum by itself.

[Edited 8/25/19 20:18pm]

Then create your own thread about Religion. But if the OP created a topic about 1 specific thing, why derail it or usurp the discussion for your own. Islam is Islam. You will not understand Islam by discussing Druidism. You won't understand Star Wars by discussing Star Trek.

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Reply #105 posted 08/25/19 8:29pm

OldFriends4Sal
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Learn about Islam...

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Reply #106 posted 08/25/19 8:33pm

poppys

OldFriends4Sale said:

poppys said:


guitarslinger44 asked me mulitple times if I supported gay/womens rights. In this thread and the thread it sprang from. I answered him.

Really don't understand the need to be strictly reductive in an open discussion of what people think of Islam. Religion is the broader part of the topic. Islam doesn't exist in a religious vacuum by itself.

Then create your own thread about Religion. But is the OP created a topic about 1 specific thing, why derail it or usurp the discussion for your own. Islam is Islam. You will not understand Islam by discussing Druidism.


Freaky created this thread as another tangent of the thread about the US Congresswomen being denied entrance to Israel. We were all on it. Have you read it?

Have you watched the OP video? I have. Good night.

[Edited 8/25/19 20:35pm]

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Reply #107 posted 08/25/19 9:24pm

OldFriends4Sal
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poppys said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

Then create your own thread about Religion. But is the OP created a topic about 1 specific thing, why derail it or usurp the discussion for your own. Islam is Islam. You will not understand Islam by discussing Druidism.


Freaky created this thread as another tangent of the thread about the US Congresswomen being denied entrance to Israel. We were all on it. Have you read it?

Have you watched the OP video? I have. Good night.

[Edited 8/25/19 20:35pm]

So

And yes I watched, long before I posted.

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Reply #108 posted 08/26/19 6:58am

2elijah

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poppys said:



jjhunsecker said:


If someone starts a thread called "Why do Hispanic men beat their women ", or "Why are Jewish women gold diggers ", wouldn't it be expected for some to say "Why just single out Hispanic men or Jewish women for behavior that lots of different types of people have also engaged in" ?T


The video in the OP touches on many things. A Christian pastor interviews the Imam.

I don't see the point of being so granular that we can't discuss the beach while we examine one grain of sand.


Yes I think a lot of Americans need to learn about Islam, instead of immediately condemning all who practice it, and assume all Muslims have bad intentions against Americans, and that they are mainly of Arab descent. Most of those misconceptions in this country are based on the 9/11 tragedy of course.

Many in the media also contribute to much of the misinformation and bias. This is not to say that bad apples, with bad intent or bias doesn’t exist among Islam believers/supporters, just saying that we should be careful of the negative generalizations many have of all who practice Islam.
[Edited 8/26/19 6:58am]
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Reply #109 posted 08/26/19 7:47am

2freaky4church
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What bugs me about Islam haters is they tend to have zero interest in learning about religion. They would watch the Omar video and say I don't give a fuck what that guy says I only care about what my internal bias tugs at. What about the fact homophobia was all over just ten years ago. Even Obama was a gay hater.

All you others say Hell Yea!! woot!
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Reply #110 posted 08/26/19 8:19am

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2freaky4church1 said:

What bugs me about Islam haters is they tend to have zero interest in learning about religion. They would watch the Omar video and say I don't give a fuck what that guy says I only care about what my internal bias tugs at. What about the fact homophobia was all over just ten years ago. Even Obama was a gay hater.

Well I think that is true, overall, unless their intent is to deconstruct it, they they do.

.

Homophobia was all over ten years ago? What does that mean?

.

Was Obama really a gay hater? The man called the Gay President or President for Gays?

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Reply #111 posted 08/26/19 8:33am

jjhunsecker

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2freaky4church1 said:

What bugs me about Islam haters is they tend to have zero interest in learning about religion. They would watch the Omar video and say I don't give a fuck what that guy says I only care about what my internal bias tugs at. What about the fact homophobia was all over just ten years ago. Even Obama was a gay hater.

To call Obama a "gay hater" is just ridiculous

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Reply #112 posted 08/26/19 9:32am

deebee

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OldFriends4Sale said:

jjhunsecker said:

Why limit it to one religion? Many religions have advocated hatred of homosexuals and discrimination against them, in varying degrees

Because the OP titled the thread about Islam.

.

This is why these threads go nowhere. There are so many avenues of Islamic culture and ethnicity that we can discuss to gain a wider understanding. But we cannot if we discuss Buddism, Catholicism, Judiasm, African Australian S American Indigenous beliefs.

.

If someone wants to discuss Madhouse, why mix it up with 3rd Eye Girl, FourPlay and any other jazz group. Discuss Madhouse. It seems like this topic about Islam is uncomfortable with people posting. But it will focus on Islam. The OP titled it so, and guitarslinger44 asked specific questions about Islam.

.

The reaction "well what about X Y Z" is some kind of deflection. It almost seems persons, like those bringing up X Y Z, might be Muslim or lean toward their beliefs. Which is ok, just stay on the topic.

I'd say there's something of a false dichotomy here between knowledge of X and knowledge of not-X. Part of understanding what makes a particular thing what it is is understanding of what is generic to it and other things of a certain type. It is also true that particular qualities can be (some would say must be) apprehended in contradistinction to other things. For example, one distinctive quality of Islam is that it is a monotheistic faith. To understand what this means, we can usefully refer to its fellow monotheisms Judaism and Christianity - which the Qur'an itself refers to. And, further, to grasp what is distinctive about monotheism, one can usefully contrast it with the polytheism of, say, Hinduism. In both cases, understanding of Islam is enhanced by comparison or contrast with something that's not Islam, rather than compromised.

So, if we're trying to apprehend what make homophobic tendencies within Muslim thought what they are, it will aid our understanding to apprehend what is common to all religious homophobia (or possibly, more specifically) the homophobia of these three monotheisms. Otherwise, we'll mistake something generic to many religions for something particular to Islam. However, even if we want to be more specific, it may also be useful to contrast specifically Muslim homophobia to, say, Christian homophobia. Once again, referring to something else won't distract us from understanding; it will help us apprehend precisely what is distinctive about the former.

This is a fundamental point in philosophy. It also informs comparative research in the social sciences (e.g. comparative politics). Not that there's anything wrong with listing lots and lots of facts and information about Islam or whatever. It's just that the danger there is that we generate lots and lots of knowledge, but not necessarily better understanding.

"Not everything that is faced can be changed; but nothing can be changed until it is faced." - James Baldwin
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Reply #113 posted 08/26/19 9:58am

jjhunsecker

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deebee said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

Because the OP titled the thread about Islam.

.

This is why these threads go nowhere. There are so many avenues of Islamic culture and ethnicity that we can discuss to gain a wider understanding. But we cannot if we discuss Buddism, Catholicism, Judiasm, African Australian S American Indigenous beliefs.

.

If someone wants to discuss Madhouse, why mix it up with 3rd Eye Girl, FourPlay and any other jazz group. Discuss Madhouse. It seems like this topic about Islam is uncomfortable with people posting. But it will focus on Islam. The OP titled it so, and guitarslinger44 asked specific questions about Islam.

.

The reaction "well what about X Y Z" is some kind of deflection. It almost seems persons, like those bringing up X Y Z, might be Muslim or lean toward their beliefs. Which is ok, just stay on the topic.

I'd say there's something of a false dichotomy here between knowledge of X and knowledge of not-X. Part of understanding what makes a particular thing what it is is understanding of what is generic to it and other things of a certain type. It is also true that particular qualities can be (some would say must be) apprehended in contradistinction to other things. For example, one distinctive quality of Islam is that it is a monotheistic faith. To understand what this means, we can usefully refer to its fellow monotheisms Judaism and Christianity - which the Qur'an itself refers to. And, further, to grasp what is distinctive about monotheism, one can usefully contrast it with the polytheism of, say, Hinduism. In both cases, understanding of Islam is enhanced by comparison or contrast with something that's not Islam, rather than compromised.

So, if we're trying to apprehend what make homophobic tendencies within Muslim thought what they are, it will aid our understanding to apprehend what is common to all religious homophobia (or possibly, more specifically) the homophobia of these three monotheisms. Otherwise, we'll mistake something generic to many religions for something particular to Islam. However, even if we want to be more specific, it may also be useful to contrast specifically Muslim homophobia to, say, Christian homophobia. Once again, referring to something else won't distract us from understanding; it will help us apprehend precisely what is distinctive about the former.

This is a fundamental point in philosophy. It also informs comparative research in the social sciences (e.g. comparative politics). Not that there's anything wrong with listing lots and lots of facts and information about Islam or whatever. It's just that the danger there is that we generate lots and lots of knowledge, but not necessarily better understanding.

Once again DeeBee, an excellent response.

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Reply #114 posted 08/26/19 10:52am

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jjhunsecker said:

deebee said:

I'd say there's something of a false dichotomy here between knowledge of X and knowledge of not-X. Part of understanding what makes a particular thing what it is is understanding of what is generic to it and other things of a certain type. It is also true that particular qualities can be (some would say must be) apprehended in contradistinction to other things. For example, one distinctive quality of Islam is that it is a monotheistic faith. To understand what this means, we can usefully refer to its fellow monotheisms Judaism and Christianity - which the Qur'an itself refers to. And, further, to grasp what is distinctive about monotheism, one can usefully contrast it with the polytheism of, say, Hinduism. In both cases, understanding of Islam is enhanced by comparison or contrast with something that's not Islam, rather than compromised.

So, if we're trying to apprehend what make homophobic tendencies within Muslim thought what they are, it will aid our understanding to apprehend what is common to all religious homophobia (or possibly, more specifically) the homophobia of these three monotheisms. Otherwise, we'll mistake something generic to many religions for something particular to Islam. However, even if we want to be more specific, it may also be useful to contrast specifically Muslim homophobia to, say, Christian homophobia. Once again, referring to something else won't distract us from understanding; it will help us apprehend precisely what is distinctive about the former.

This is a fundamental point in philosophy. It also informs comparative research in the social sciences (e.g. comparative politics). Not that there's anything wrong with listing lots and lots of facts and information about Islam or whatever. It's just that the danger there is that we generate lots and lots of knowledge, but not necessarily better understanding.

Once again DeeBee, an excellent response.

but you guys are not doing that. i mentioned the same thing in my post 106. But I'm put on the other side of the line, so it isn't acknowledged. that is the line drawn in the sand in P&R that never allows anything less than bickering. It is why religion discussion in P&R have always devolved into flames.

you guys are finger pointing.

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Reply #115 posted 08/26/19 11:02am

OldFriends4Sal
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deebee said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

Because the OP titled the thread about Islam.

.

This is why these threads go nowhere. There are so many avenues of Islamic culture and ethnicity that we can discuss to gain a wider understanding. But we cannot if we discuss Buddism, Catholicism, Judiasm, African Australian S American Indigenous beliefs.

.

If someone wants to discuss Madhouse, why mix it up with 3rd Eye Girl, FourPlay and any other jazz group. Discuss Madhouse. It seems like this topic about Islam is uncomfortable with people posting. But it will focus on Islam. The OP titled it so, and guitarslinger44 asked specific questions about Islam.

.

The reaction "well what about X Y Z" is some kind of deflection. It almost seems persons, like those bringing up X Y Z, might be Muslim or lean toward their beliefs. Which is ok, just stay on the topic.

I'd say there's something of a false dichotomy here between knowledge of X and knowledge of not-X. Part of understanding what makes a particular thing what it is is understanding of what is generic to it and other things of a certain type. It is also true that particular qualities can be (some would say must be) apprehended in contradistinction to other things. For example, one distinctive quality of Islam is that it is a monotheistic faith. To understand what this means, we can usefully refer to its fellow monotheisms Judaism and Christianity - which the Qur'an itself refers to. And, further, to grasp what is distinctive about monotheism, one can usefully contrast it with the polytheism of, say, Hinduism. In both cases, understanding of Islam is enhanced by comparison or contrast with something that's not Islam, rather than compromised.

So, if we're trying to apprehend what make homophobic tendencies within Muslim thought what they are, it will aid our understanding to apprehend what is common to all religious homophobia (or possibly, more specifically) the homophobia of these three monotheisms. Otherwise, we'll mistake something generic to many religions for something particular to Islam. However, even if we want to be more specific, it may also be useful to contrast specifically Muslim homophobia to, say, Christian homophobia. Once again, referring to something else won't distract us from understanding; it will help us apprehend precisely what is distinctive about the former.

This is a fundamental point in philosophy. It also informs comparative research in the social sciences (e.g. comparative politics). Not that there's anything wrong with listing lots and lots of facts and information about Islam or whatever. It's just that the danger there is that we generate lots and lots of knowledge, but not necessarily better understanding.

I said the same in short in post 106
.

the same as 'why do young men committ more crimes...' I think it is worth looking into, and you might have to bring up female crimes to see what is/isn't really happening, but we can discuss issues revolving around men to get a wider understanding of this.

.

The issue is they are deflecting, not delving into a discussion. They are not saying well lets discuss and get an understanding. what is happeing is 'Well what about this skin head at the Synogogue' etc etc It wasn't until I replied to guitarslingers question that everyone jumped in with the deflection pointing to fault of other religions and white racists. That is all you will see.

.

Of course there can and will use points of other religions especially Judaism to understand. As will must in male/female situations. But overall we can deal with the gender in question.

There is also so much within the Arabic world and pre Islam religions that we never get to scratch the surface in these discussion, before it it the 'preach' and 'back patting' happens. Not to mention, many Arabic people are Jewish(non Hebrew) or Christian or atheist or whatever religious belief came before Mohammed. For all we know guitarslinger is a female lesbian Arabic, who is wrestingling with her cultures issues. Bringing up deflective non Islamic examples wasn't answering the question, that the member asked. But again the title of the thread is not All Religions, it is about Islam.

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Reply #116 posted 08/26/19 11:26am

poppys

Don't understand why the discussion of this topic is how we are discussing it. Certainly the topic is being treated more seriously than many topics here - where topics are trashed on the daily with all kinds of nonsense.

The purpose of debate and discussion is just that. Debate & Discussion. Anyone that is not happy with the thread can hop on or off anytime they want to.

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Reply #117 posted 08/26/19 11:28am

poppys

jjhunsecker said:

deebee said:

I'd say there's something of a false dichotomy here between knowledge of X and knowledge of not-X. Part of understanding what makes a particular thing what it is is understanding of what is generic to it and other things of a certain type. It is also true that particular qualities can be (some would say must be) apprehended in contradistinction to other things. For example, one distinctive quality of Islam is that it is a monotheistic faith. To understand what this means, we can usefully refer to its fellow monotheisms Judaism and Christianity - which the Qur'an itself refers to. And, further, to grasp what is distinctive about monotheism, one can usefully contrast it with the polytheism of, say, Hinduism. In both cases, understanding of Islam is enhanced by comparison or contrast with something that's not Islam, rather than compromised.

So, if we're trying to apprehend what make homophobic tendencies within Muslim thought what they are, it will aid our understanding to apprehend what is common to all religious homophobia (or possibly, more specifically) the homophobia of these three monotheisms. Otherwise, we'll mistake something generic to many religions for something particular to Islam. However, even if we want to be more specific, it may also be useful to contrast specifically Muslim homophobia to, say, Christian homophobia. Once again, referring to something else won't distract us from understanding; it will help us apprehend precisely what is distinctive about the former.

This is a fundamental point in philosophy. It also informs comparative research in the social sciences (e.g. comparative politics).

Not that there's anything wrong with listing lots and lots of facts and information about Islam or whatever. It's just that the danger there is that we generate lots and lots of knowledge, but not necessarily better understanding.


Once again DeeBee, an excellent response.

nod Agree.

Bolded is also a fundamental point of productive debate. It is taught in the study and practice of debating as a form of communication and an educational tool.

[Edited 8/26/19 11:56am]

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Reply #118 posted 08/26/19 12:07pm

OldFriends4Sal
e

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poppys said:

jjhunsecker said:


Once again DeeBee, an excellent response.

nod Agree.

Bolded is also a fundamental point of productive debate. It is taught in the study and practice of debating as a form of communication and an educational tool.

[Edited 8/26/19 11:56am]

deflective blaming, is not productive communication.

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Reply #119 posted 08/26/19 12:20pm

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The Practice of Islam

In discussing this with a Isma'ili friend of mine, he thought this classification of Muslims were a bit too simplistic, as there are many very different groups under the conservative category. He has a good point. A second shortcoming is the broad lines show it is hard to sharply delineate between groups and there are degrees of liberalism. So, let's move on to a less simplified model.

Only a few groups in Islam, the modern Wahhabis and ancient Kharijites, claim to follow the Qur'an and also consciously downplay all tradition. You can remember the classic Muslims and other categories by the acronym SCHISM, meaning division.

Successors and traditions have prominence in Shi'ite Islam. For example, when at Khomeini's funeral, crowds were trying to pull off parts of his body to take home and reverence. Pilgrimages to holy shrines to revere their saints are important for them.

Cultural Muslims know little about Islam, and may not care. Some cultural Muslims drink beer, and after seeing what Islam is about, they are Muslims because they just want to be left alone.

Human traditions of Mohammed and others (the Hadiths) are paramount in Sunni Islam.

Inventors of new beliefs. Some "Muslims" say it is fine to drink wine, there is no need to go to Mecca, or fast or pray as prescribed. God appeared as a "Trinity" of Allah, Mohammed, and 'Ali, and people who do not recognize 'Ali as God will be reincarnated as animals.

Spiritual mysticism, called Sufism, teaches one can be absorbed in the divine, and be God themselves. They focus on experience, including smoking hashish, and flagellating themselves with whips, because pain can bring them closer to God.

Modern Muslims are liberals who, personally "abrogate" things in the Qur'an they disagree with, even if neither Mohammed nor any early Muslim ever said they were abrogated. Since September 11, 2001, many modern Muslims were disgusted with conservative Muslims trying to follow what Mohammed originally said, and the feeling apparently is mutual.

In which group do what are termed "Muslim extremists" fit? Mohammed led a surprise attack at dawn, ordered assassinations, and Mohammed himself fought in either 19 or 26 of the 56 or so battles. However Mohammed did not advocate suicide, and he preferred to enslave women and children rather than kill them.

Conservative Muslims castigate the modern Muslims as denying everything in Islam that offends their western sensibilities. Modern Muslims look down on conservatives as ill-educated embarrassments who want the world to turn back the clock to the 13th century. Following is a brief synopsis of some of the sects.

Wahhabis - Focus on the Original Source

The Wahhabi sect is a strict, conservative sect that tries to follow the original teaching of Mohammed. It was derived from Sunni Hanbalism via Ibn Taymiya/Taymiyya (d.1328). Later it spread from Mecca to Punjab, India via Ismail Hadji Maulvi-Mohammed and Sayd Ahmed. The Saudi Arabian government came to power as a result of a Wahhabi revolt. They emphasize tawheed, or the oneness of God. Within Saudi Arabia Wahhabis are considered Sunnis.

Many of the Muslims in the World Trade Center plane crashes and the al-Qaeda were Wahhabis. Early Muslims tortured people and gouged out their eyes, so if an extremist is one who greatly deviates from the original teaching, peaceful liberal Muslims are at least as much "extremists" in Islam as the violent Wahhabis.

Kharijites - The Disappointed Ones

The Kharijites, (=Khawarij) in early Islam were the third most important group, after the Sunnis and Shi'ites. Like the Wahhabis, they only wanted the pure, original teaching, but unlike the Wahhabis an essential part of their teaching was obedience to 'Ali as the rightful caliph. Indeed, they were indistinguishable from Shi'ites, until 'Ali submitted to arbitration. After that, Kharijites fought against both Sunnis and Shi'ites. Their main leaders were Abu Bilal Mirdas (died 681 A.D.) and Abu Hamza (died 747 A.D.) Note the early dates.

The Kharijite key distinctives were that

· "God is sole judge and arbiter".

· After disappointment with 'Ali, they said the Caliphate was open to anyone, even a black slave.

· Deeds are an essential part of the fruit

· Man is free and responsible, as opposed to the fatalistic views of many other Muslims.

The Kharijites split into the Sufriyya/Saffriyah (al-Tabari vol.39 p.217), Azarika, Bayhasiyya, Nadjadat, and Ibadiyya groups. The Kharijites are almost extinct today. Surviving ones are in Oman, Zanzibar, north and east Africa. Many of the Kharijites are the more moderate Ibadites, who do not believe in assassination.

Sunnis - Traditionalists

About 300,000 individual traditions (most of them universally acknowledged as bogus) were allegedly preserved. Bukhari, Tirmidhi, and others sifted through these a couple of centuries after Mohammed and came up with volumes of the collections of what they regarded as genuine. Undoubtedly many of these are accurate, but fake ones did slip in. When Sunni Muslims speak of living under Muslim Law (Sharia), they mean these traditions and the interpretation of them and the Qur'an. Many Sunnis accept Shi'ites and Sufis, but Shi'ite Islam is outlawed in Malaysia.

Shi'ites - 7 or 12 Successors

The Shi'ites split with the Sunnis over succession. They say 'Ali, whom traditions say had superhuman strength, should have been caliph after Mohammed, and that the Caliphate is hereditary. The Sunnis said the Caliphate was elective for anyone of the Quaresh tribe. Here is a comparison of the two groups.

Ghulat Sects - The Most Innovative Ones

'Alawites drink wine and believe in a Trinity of Mohammed, 'Ali, and Saliman al-Farisi. Babis followed the "Bab" (Gate) who was a man named Ali Muhammad, born in 1821 who claimed to be the forerunner for the 12th imam returned in 1844 A.D. He was executed in 1850 A.D., and his group split into two parts: Azalis, and Baha'is (1863), who believe the Bahaullah is the 12th imam returned as well as Christ returned. They do not really claim to be Muslim. Ahmadiyyas, which are now two sects, were started in 1879 in Punjab when Mirza Ghulam Ahmad claimed to be the Mahdi and the Messiah. They redefine Jihad as peaceful only. They believe Jesus was really crucified, but taken down alive, escaped to Kashmir, and was buried in Srinigar.

Sufi Muslims - Mystics

Sufism is the mystic branch of Islam. While regular Islam emphasizes actions, including prayer and fasting, it say little about heart experience. Sufism says the external actions do not matter, it is the internal that counts. Using frequent examples of wine, and less frequently illicit sex, they speak of not just experiencing God, but becoming God themselves by annihilation and being absorbed in the divine. A famous Sufi saying is "Praise be to me." One of the most widely read Sufi author today, nicknamed Rumi, even teaches mystical truth by teaching a story of two women who have sex with a donkey (The Mathnawi 5:1333-1405).

Not only were Sufis heavily persecuted in Iran under Khomeini, but historically they have also suffered persecution until the Ottomans took over. (Many Janissaries were Sufis.) Some Sufi groups talk of a doctrine of "survival" complementing the doctrine of "annihilation", saying that some parts of a completed Sufi are still separate, they are not actually Allah, and so other Muslims should not kill them. It is difficult to count Sufis, because a Sufi Muslim can also be a Sunni or Shi'ite. One estimate is that after the Iranian persecutions there are about 5 million of them, and they are growing in California.

Cultural Muslims

Cultural Muslims are Muslim in the sense that many westerners are Christian: they know more about the religion they profess to be than any other. In genuine Christianity, one is not a Christian if they have not given over their life to Christ. However, a person can be a Muslim as long as they say the right things, and do not get too out of line. As a matter of fact, in Austin I heard of an atheist who was also a Muslim. He did not believe Allah was real, but thought that Islam was a lifestyle he wanted to have.

Liberal Muslims

Modern, liberal Muslims differ from cultural Muslims in that liberal Muslims can be very serious about their religion. They are not trying to lie when they say Islam is a religion of peace; they sincerely believe that. This is in spite of the way the majority of the Muslim world has been throughout the ages. They are not ignorant of what has gone on, but believe that most of the Muslim world is filled with ill-educated people that have only a caricature of true Islam. On the other hand, conservative Muslims deplore modernists who bow Islam before the modern world. What they are ignorant of, or have rationalized away, is that the source of Islam, Mohammed himself, was a violent person who led raids on caravans, ordered assassinations, and commanded his followers to kill pagans and fight Christians and Jews.

Liberal Muslims say that conservatives are in the minority; conservatives say that liberals are in the minority. Some newspaper articles about protests and schools in Muslim lands indicate that there are substantial numbers of both conservatives and liberals. Yes, the conservative Muslims says that non-Muslims are to be killed (with some protection for Jews and Christians living in Muslim lands who pay an extra tax for being non-Muslim). All of the "reasonable" arguments of liberal Muslims and non-Muslims will not sway them, because Mohammed was clear on this.

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