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Reply #180 posted 08/09/19 10:47am

2elijah

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jjhunsecker said:

guitarslinger44 said:



Astasheiks said:




2elijah said:


I wonder if the owners/employers of these fruit farms get arrested as well. Sad that some of the children of the undocumented, had no one to pick them up from school, when their parents were seized. Many of their parents have been here for more than 10 years, no record of crimes. Something better has to be done. They can’t just break up families and leave the children without no one. They’re being arrested just for the crime of working to feed their families, and at the same time, many of them making small wages. If they’ve been here for at least 10 years, no record, then at least, try to set them up on a legal pathway to citizenship, especially if they have children here already. There has to be a better way. [url]https://www.washingtonpost.com/[/url] ICE agents raid Miss. work sites, arrest 680 people in largest single-state immigration enforcement action in U.S. history “U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents swept through seven work sites in six cities across Mississippi on Wednesday, arresting approximately 680 people the agency said were undocumented immigrants in what officials said is the largest single-state workplace enforcement action in U.S. history. The raids targeted agricultural processing plants, part of a year-long investigation into illegal employment of immigrants in the state, officials said. They did not say how many individuals they were targeting in the operations, nor what proportion of those taken into custody were what ICE calls “collateral” arrests — those who were swept up along with those ICE was seeking. ICE acting director Matthew Albence said at a news conference in Jackson, Miss., that some of those arrested will be prosecuted for crimes, others will be swiftly deported, and some will be released pending immigration court hearings. Albence said the raids were part of normal ICE operations that seek to enforce U.S. immigration.” [Edited 8/8/19 6:35am]


If they are doing working basically White Folks (especially Republican White Folks) don't want to do whats the problem. Even if it was a problem then they should have a immigration process to process those people and let them go back to work and do the jobs Republican White Folks don't want to do!!!!! eek confused eek Or can they get enough Poor Whites and Poor Blacks to take these jobs???


[Edited 8/8/19 11:42am]





It's not that Americans don't want those jobs, it's that the employers know there's a steady stream of immigrants, both legal and otherwise, who will take said jobs for a fraction of the what an American would need to be paid, and they won't have to pay benefits, workman's comp, etc to boot. Like 2elijah said, they get used as cheap labor because employers don't want to pay actual wages.



But very few demonize or attack those EMPLOYERS with a same vitriol, and in many cases outright hatred, that they reserve for the immigrant workers, (who are generally doing whatever they can to support their families). Wonder why???


Exactly. The undocumented, immigrant workers are just trying to feed their families.

I think they may start penalizing some of these employers. I was listening to a guest on tv who said sometimes when the migrant workers band together or complain about work conditions, often times their employers will contact ICE (anonymously) on the workers. They don’t want to hire American citizens, because they don’t want to put out money for employee benefits/job security. Besides as far as work on fruit farms, I doubt, especially many Black Americans, would want jobs in the ‘fields’<—Too much bad history attached to that.

They’ll just go under the radar, and get another 100 plus illegal immigrants to replace the last ones. I wholeheartedly believe they need to start going after the employers, if they are going to round up/raid the undocumented workers, who work for those employers.

Om the other hand (topic for a different thread-but similar situation) our prison system is doing the same, in the way of cheap labor with minimum level inmates, who are rented out to popular fast food places/family restaurants, construction, etc., when they could give those lower paying jobs to American citizens who live near those businesses or in close low-income, including rural communities. It’s not that American citizens don’t want those jobs, the problem is that many of those employers would rather hire temporary, cheaper labor, no strings attached.

Here’s how it works with the prison system: The employers call the states’ prison work-release program, and request a specific number of minimum-level inmates (inmates who are considered no physical threat to the public), to work as either cooks, dishwashers, janitors, construction workers, etc, anywhere from 1 day to a week, as needed by the employers.

Yet politicians will lie and tell you that it’s illegal immigrants fault for taking jobs away from Americans, instead of pointing fingers at employers who don’t always just hire American citizens, because they don’t want to provide benefits/job security for them.
[Edited 8/9/19 16:36pm]
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Reply #181 posted 08/09/19 2:19pm

Astasheiks

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RodeoSchro said:

guitarslinger44 said:

jjhunsecker said: Most people don't extrapolate the issue beyond people jumping the border. I used to work at a place that employed a lot of illegal folks and people who were here on student visas who weren't supposed to have jobs. I agree that employers need to be held accountable, but this is sort of a chicken and egg problem.



No, it's not a chicken and egg problem.

Ther very same people who bleat "Enforce our laws! Deport immigrants! Enforce our laws!!!!!!" lose their minds if the government enforces the "employer responsibility" laws.

Just another indication that racism is the base for all this. Deport the brown law-breakers; leave the white law-breakers alone.

Seems like the ones that's doing all the bytching don't want these jobs anyway, So they just dumb as all get out!!!! neutral confused sad

[Edited 8/9/19 14:19pm]

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Reply #182 posted 08/09/19 2:24pm

guitarslinger4
4

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RodeoSchro said:



guitarslinger44 said:


jjhunsecker said:
But very few demonize or attack those EMPLOYERS with a same vitriol, and in many cases outright hatred, that they reserve for the immigrant workers, (who are generally doing whatever they can to support their families). Wonder why???

Most people don't extrapolate the issue beyond people jumping the border. I used to work at a place that employed a lot of illegal folks and people who were here on student visas who weren't supposed to have jobs. I agree that employers need to be held accountable, but this is sort of a chicken and egg problem.



No, it's not a chicken and egg problem.

Ther very same people who bleat "Enforce our laws! Deport immigrants! Enforce our laws!!!!!" lose their minds if the government enforces the "employer responsibility" laws.

Just another indication that racism is the base for all this. Deport the brown law-breakers; leave the white law-breakers alone.



Who complained about employer responsibility laws? You're making apll this up lol
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Reply #183 posted 08/09/19 2:24pm

Astasheiks

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DiminutiveRocker said:

poppys said:

We need to do what Puerto Rico just did.



Is this Puerto Rico calling Trump: "YouAss"..."YASS"?

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Reply #184 posted 08/09/19 3:41pm

benni

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guitarslinger44 said:

Astasheiks said:

If they are doing working basically White Folks (especially Republican White Folks) don't want to do whats the problem. Even if it was a problem then they should have a immigration process to process those people and let them go back to work and do the jobs Republican White Folks don't want to do!!!!! eek confused eek Or can they get enough Poor Whites and Poor Blacks to take these jobs???

[Edited 8/8/19 11:42am]



It's not that Americans don't want those jobs, it's that the employers know there's a steady stream of immigrants, both legal and otherwise, who will take said jobs for a fraction of the what an American would need to be paid, and they won't have to pay benefits, workman's comp, etc to boot. Like 2elijah said, they get used as cheap labor because employers don't want to pay actual wages.



https://www.newsweek.com/...al-1403512


The problem became visible in January, as the application window opened for the quota of 33,000 visas. Demand from employers was so large that it crashed the government's computers. When the window was reopened a few weeks later, I applied for visas within 10 minutes. But the demand was about three times the available supply, and I was one of the applicants completely shut out.

Obviously, the number of H-2B visas needs to be increased. Another weakness in the system is that employers and their employees with a good history are not—and definitely should be—automatically granted renewals. Finally, the application process is complex and expensive and, for the sake of small businesses, needs to be simplified.

Before you say, "You should hire Americans," consider this: Americans don't want my kind of jobs.

As a requirement of the visa process, I ran "help wanted" ads in my area, and not a single American applied. You can guess why they wouldn't: Who naturally gravitates toward hard labor for eight months and then four months of no work?

In contrast, workers from Central America—and Mexico, too—can return to their countries and step into jobs created there by the winter growing season. If everything is progressing as it should, these employees become available to work for their employers year after year, which helps their families, the employers and the customers needing services.

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Reply #185 posted 08/09/19 11:41pm

jjhunsecker

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guitarslinger44 said:

jjhunsecker said:
But very few demonize or attack those EMPLOYERS with a same vitriol, and in many cases outright hatred, that they reserve for the immigrant workers, (who are generally doing whatever they can to support their families). Wonder why???
Most people don't extrapolate the issue beyond people jumping the border. I used to work at a place that employed a lot of illegal folks and people who were here on student visas who weren't supposed to have jobs. I agree that employers need to be held accountable, but this is sort of a chicken and egg problem.

Who is the bigger "criminal"- the poor undocumented immigrant, who came here to do a shitty job for shitty wages to help feed his or her family,,,OR the wealthy business owner who is exploiting cheap labor and desperate people so he can save some bucks (and doesn't give a fuck about AMERICAN workers )?

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Reply #186 posted 08/09/19 11:43pm

jjhunsecker

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RodeoSchro said:

guitarslinger44 said:

jjhunsecker said: Most people don't extrapolate the issue beyond people jumping the border. I used to work at a place that employed a lot of illegal folks and people who were here on student visas who weren't supposed to have jobs. I agree that employers need to be held accountable, but this is sort of a chicken and egg problem.



No, it's not a chicken and egg problem.

Ther very same people who bleat "Enforce our laws! Deport immigrants! Enforce our laws!!!!!!" lose their minds if the government enforces the "employer responsibility" laws.

Just another indication that racism is the base for all this. Deport the brown law-breakers; leave the white law-breakers alone.

You hit the nail on the head !

And of course one of the imployers of undocumented workers for decades : Herr Trump himself. Who in many cases stiffed the workers and knew they had no recourse as undocumented immigrants.

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Reply #187 posted 08/09/19 11:47pm

jjhunsecker

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Does anyone think most Americans want jobs picking fruit all day in the 95 degree sun, or cleaning motel toilets, or busing plates in a pizza joint, or delivering Chines food at 2AM ?

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Reply #188 posted 08/10/19 3:56am

maplenpg

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jjhunsecker said:

guitarslinger44 said:

jjhunsecker said: Most people don't extrapolate the issue beyond people jumping the border. I used to work at a place that employed a lot of illegal folks and people who were here on student visas who weren't supposed to have jobs. I agree that employers need to be held accountable, but this is sort of a chicken and egg problem.

Who is the bigger "criminal"- the poor undocumented immigrant, who came here to do a shitty job for shitty wages to help feed his or her family,,,OR the wealthy business owner who is exploiting cheap labor and desperate people so he can save some bucks (and doesn't give a fuck about AMERICAN workers )?

THIS.

We are all okay, as long as "we" are the ones living on top of the empire of eternal war. - Jaawwnn
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Reply #189 posted 08/10/19 6:30am

2elijah

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[Edited 8/10/19 6:33am]
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Reply #190 posted 08/10/19 6:31am

2elijah

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jjhunsecker said:



RodeoSchro said:




guitarslinger44 said:


jjhunsecker said: Most people don't extrapolate the issue beyond people jumping the border. I used to work at a place that employed a lot of illegal folks and people who were here on student visas who weren't supposed to have jobs. I agree that employers need to be held accountable, but this is sort of a chicken and egg problem.



No, it's not a chicken and egg problem.

Ther very same people who bleat "Enforce our laws! Deport immigrants! Enforce our laws!!!!!" lose their minds if the government enforces the "employer responsibility" laws.

Just another indication that racism is the base for all this. Deport the brown law-breakers; leave the white law-breakers alone.




You hit the nail on the head !



And of course one of the imployers of undocumented workers for decades : Herr Trump himself. Who in many cases stiffed the workers and knew they had no recourse as undocumented immigrants.


Yep, I just heard yesterday, that he even has undocumented workers employed at his construction company. Busted again.
[Edited 8/10/19 6:35am]
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Reply #191 posted 08/10/19 2:21pm

DiminutiveRock
er

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2elijah said:

jjhunsecker said:

You hit the nail on the head !

And of course one of the imployers of undocumented workers for decades : Herr Trump himself. Who in many cases stiffed the workers and knew they had no recourse as undocumented immigrants.

Yep, I just heard yesterday, that he even has undocumented workers employed at his construction company. Busted again. [Edited 8/10/19 6:35am]

i dont know what his organization pays but considering he jilted many other hired workers/contractors that provided service to him - who will he get to do this work?

"Families are torn apart, men women and children are separated. Children come home from school to find their parents have gone missing." - Anne Frank
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Reply #192 posted 08/12/19 8:43am

guitarslinger4
4

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jjhunsecker said:



guitarslinger44 said:


jjhunsecker said:
But very few demonize or attack those EMPLOYERS with a same vitriol, and in many cases outright hatred, that they reserve for the immigrant workers, (who are generally doing whatever they can to support their families). Wonder why???

Most people don't extrapolate the issue beyond people jumping the border. I used to work at a place that employed a lot of illegal folks and people who were here on student visas who weren't supposed to have jobs. I agree that employers need to be held accountable, but this is sort of a chicken and egg problem.


Who is the bigger "criminal"- the poor undocumented immigrant, who came here to do a shitty job for shitty wages to help feed his or her family,,,OR the wealthy business owner who is exploiting cheap labor and desperate people so he can save some bucks (and doesn't give a fuck about AMERICAN workers )?



Who's a bigger criminal, a murderer or a rapist? lol
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Reply #193 posted 08/12/19 8:45am

guitarslinger4
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jjhunsecker said:

Does anyone think most Americans want jobs picking fruit all day in the 95 degree sun, or cleaning motel toilets, or busing plates in a pizza joint, or delivering Chines food at 2AM ?



You'd be surprised at what jobs people take on when they need money.
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Reply #194 posted 08/12/19 8:55am

13cjk13

DiminutiveRocker said:

2elijah said:

jjhunsecker said: Yep, I just heard yesterday, that he even has undocumented workers employed at his construction company. Busted again. [Edited 8/10/19 6:35am]

i dont know what his organization pays but considering he jilted many other hired workers/contractors that provided service to him - who will he get to do this work?

Obviously your average " LEGAL" CITIZEN that needs the money. I just read that somewhere.

[Edited 8/12/19 8:55am]

"If we had had confidence the president clearly did not commit a crime, we would have said so."
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Reply #195 posted 08/12/19 9:23am

jjhunsecker

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guitarslinger44 said:

jjhunsecker said:

Who is the bigger "criminal"- the poor undocumented immigrant, who came here to do a shitty job for shitty wages to help feed his or her family,,,OR the wealthy business owner who is exploiting cheap labor and desperate people so he can save some bucks (and doesn't give a fuck about AMERICAN workers )?

Who's a bigger criminal, a murderer or a rapist? lol

Legally, murder is considered a worse crime than rape , so usually the puntative punishment is harsher. So , under the terms of your absurd question, I guess a murderer is a "bigger criminal" than a rapist under our laws. I mean, technically, a teenage shoplifter and Charles Manson are both "criminals"....but would anybody put them on the same level ?

Nice deflection from the question of whether the employers should be held as culpable as the undocumented workers. I saw hundreds of workers dragged out in handcuffs by ICE, but not the OWNERS...Wonder why ?

[Edited 8/12/19 9:28am]

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Reply #196 posted 08/12/19 9:24am

jjhunsecker

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guitarslinger44 said:

jjhunsecker said:

Does anyone think most Americans want jobs picking fruit all day in the 95 degree sun, or cleaning motel toilets, or busing plates in a pizza joint, or delivering Chines food at 2AM ?

You'd be surprised at what jobs people take on when they need money.

If Americans were taking such shitty jobs, there would be no need for undocumented immigrants to come here to fill them

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Reply #197 posted 08/12/19 9:32am

13cjk13

jjhunsecker said:

guitarslinger44 said:

jjhunsecker said: You'd be surprised at what jobs people take on when they need money.

If Americans were taking such shitty jobs, there would be no need for undocumented immigrants to come here to fill them

Yeah, there is that.

"If we had had confidence the president clearly did not commit a crime, we would have said so."
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Reply #198 posted 08/12/19 10:32am

guitarslinger4
4

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jjhunsecker said:



guitarslinger44 said:


jjhunsecker said:



Who is the bigger "criminal"- the poor undocumented immigrant, who came here to do a shitty job for shitty wages to help feed his or her family,,,OR the wealthy business owner who is exploiting cheap labor and desperate people so he can save some bucks (and doesn't give a fuck about AMERICAN workers )?



Who's a bigger criminal, a murderer or a rapist? lol


Legally, murder is considered a worse crime than rape , so usually the puntative punishment is harsher. So , under the terms of your absurd question, I guess a murderer is a "bigger criminal" than a rapist under our laws. I mean, technically, a teenage shoplifter and Charles Manson are both "criminals"....but would anybody put them on the same level ?




Nice deflection from the question of whether the employers should be held as culpable as the undocumented workers. I saw hundreds of workers dragged out in handcuffs by ICE, but not the OWNERS...Wonder why ?

[Edited 8/12/19 9:28am]



It's a ridiculous question that's why I deflected it. There's the whole "job creators" meme, and everyone jockrides entrepreneurship here even if it's bad, but if said business owner is forced to shut down then everyone working there loses their job rather than juat the illegal folks who are already breaking the law by coming in illegally.



jjhunsecker said:



guitarslinger44 said:


jjhunsecker said:

Does anyone think most Americans want jobs picking fruit all day in the 95 degree sun, or cleaning motel toilets, or busing plates in a pizza joint, or delivering Chines food at 2AM ?



You'd be surprised at what jobs people take on when they need money.

If Americans were taking such shitty jobs, there would be no need for undocumented immigrants to come here to fill them




Why wouldn't someone trying to make a profit hire people they could make work ridiculous hours for not a lot of money and no benefits as opposed to a citizen who would require a living wage and at potentially passable health care?

If anything the employers are taking advantage of the illegal folks and the situation of thrm being here. If they weren't here in the first place, said employers would HAVE to hire citizens, hence illegal immigration hurts low skill low wage people who are citizens.

[Edited 8/12/19 10:34am]
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Reply #199 posted 08/12/19 10:47am

jjhunsecker

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guitarslinger44 said:

jjhunsecker said:



guitarslinger44 said:


jjhunsecker said:



Who is the bigger "criminal"- the poor undocumented immigrant, who came here to do a shitty job for shitty wages to help feed his or her family,,,OR the wealthy business owner who is exploiting cheap labor and desperate people so he can save some bucks (and doesn't give a fuck about AMERICAN workers )?



Who's a bigger criminal, a murderer or a rapist? lol


Legally, murder is considered a worse crime than rape , so usually the puntative punishment is harsher. So , under the terms of your absurd question, I guess a murderer is a "bigger criminal" than a rapist under our laws. I mean, technically, a teenage shoplifter and Charles Manson are both "criminals"....but would anybody put them on the same level ?




Nice deflection from the question of whether the employers should be held as culpable as the undocumented workers. I saw hundreds of workers dragged out in handcuffs by ICE, but not the OWNERS...Wonder why ?

[Edited 8/12/19 9:28am]



It's a ridiculous question that's why I deflected it. There's the whole "job creators" meme, and everyone jockrides entrepreneurship here even if it's bad, but if said business owner is forced to shut down then everyone working there loses their job rather than juat the illegal folks who are already breaking the law by coming in illegally.



jjhunsecker said:



guitarslinger44 said:


jjhunsecker said:

Does anyone think most Americans want jobs picking fruit all day in the 95 degree sun, or cleaning motel toilets, or busing plates in a pizza joint, or delivering Chines food at 2AM ?



You'd be surprised at what jobs people take on when they need money.

If Americans were taking such shitty jobs, there would be no need for undocumented immigrants to come here to fill them




Why wouldn't someone trying to make a profit hire people they could make work ridiculous hours for not a lot of money and no benefits as opposed to a citizen who would require a living wage and at potentially passable health care?

If anything the employers are taking advantage of the illegal folks and the situation of thrm being here. If they weren't here in the first place, said employers would HAVE to hire citizens, hence illegal immigration hurts low skill low wage people who are citizens.

[Edited 8/12/19 10:34am]


So essentially you're giving the employers a pass . I mean, they would make an even bigger profit if they used slave labor and paid them nothing. They should have been arrested with all the undocumented workers. Obviously you believe that nothing should be done to the employers, and THEY should not pay a price for THEIR transgressions. That's like only arresting the hookers and not the johns, or the addicts and not the dealers.

The way I see it is that these desperate people come here because so many are willing to hire them, especially for jobs very few Americans would even consider.
Trump himself was notorious for using undocumented immigrant labor. But now he attacks them, and unthinking people don't see the absurdity of it all.
[Edited 8/12/19 10:53am]
[Edited 8/12/19 11:28am]
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Reply #200 posted 08/12/19 11:26am

2freaky4church
1

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I take it Fox didn't show the video of the crying little girl who wanted her parents.

All you others say Hell Yea!! woot!
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Reply #201 posted 08/12/19 11:34am

jjhunsecker

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2freaky4church1 said:

I take it Fox didn't show the video of the crying little girl who wanted her parents.

They'd probably just laugh at her, because they are inhuman unfeeling fucks

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Reply #202 posted 08/12/19 11:39am

guitarslinger4
4

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jjhunsecker said:

guitarslinger44 said:
Why wouldn't someone trying to make a profit hire people they could make work ridiculous hours for not a lot of money and no benefits as opposed to a citizen who would require a living wage and at potentially passable health care? If anything the employers are taking advantage of the illegal folks and the situation of thrm being here. If they weren't here in the first place, said employers would HAVE to hire citizens, hence illegal immigration hurts low skill low wage people who are citizens. [Edited 8/12/19 10:34am]
So essentially you're giving the employers a pass . I mean, they would make an even bigger profit if they used slave labor and paid them nothing. They should have been arrested with all the undocumented workers. Obviously you believe that nothing should be done to the employers, and THEY should not pay a price for THEIR transgressions. That's like only arresting the hookers and not the johns, or the addicts and not the dealers. The way I see it is that these desperate people come here because so many are willing to hire them, especially for jobs very few Americans would even consider. Trump himself was notorious for using undocumented immigrant labor. But now he attacks them, and unthinking people don't see the absurdity of it all. [Edited 8/12/19 10:53am] [Edited 8/12/19 11:28am]


Uhh, we've had this discussion before, and I've said, maybe even in this very thread, that I believed employers should face consequences for hiring illegals.

Why are you ok with these folks being essentially used as a slave class though?

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Reply #203 posted 08/12/19 11:54am

jjhunsecker

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guitarslinger44 said:

jjhunsecker said:

guitarslinger44 said: So essentially you're giving the employers a pass . I mean, they would make an even bigger profit if they used slave labor and paid them nothing. They should have been arrested with all the undocumented workers. Obviously you believe that nothing should be done to the employers, and THEY should not pay a price for THEIR transgressions. That's like only arresting the hookers and not the johns, or the addicts and not the dealers. The way I see it is that these desperate people come here because so many are willing to hire them, especially for jobs very few Americans would even consider. Trump himself was notorious for using undocumented immigrant labor. But now he attacks them, and unthinking people don't see the absurdity of it all. [Edited 8/12/19 10:53am] [Edited 8/12/19 11:28am]


Uhh, we've had this discussion before, and I've said, maybe even in this very thread, that I believed employers should face consequences for hiring illegals.

Why are you ok with these folks being essentially used as a slave class though?

I'm not in favor of it. I simply have sympathy for desperate people doing anything they can to feed their families. I demonize the slave OWNER, not the SLAVE himself....as so many in this country seem to do.



And as Rodeo pointed out, we know where a LOT of that sentiment seems to eminate from in this country, and in Europe as well .

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Reply #204 posted 08/12/19 11:58am

guitarslinger4
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jjhunsecker said:

guitarslinger44 said:


Uhh, we've had this discussion before, and I've said, maybe even in this very thread, that I believed employers should face consequences for hiring illegals.

Why are you ok with these folks being essentially used as a slave class though?

I'm not in favor of it. I simply have sympathy for desperate people doing anything they can to feed their families. I demonize the slave OWNER, not the SLAVE himself....as so many in this country seem to do.



And as Rodeo pointed out, we know where a LOT of that sentiment seems to eminate from in this country, and in Europe as well .


The difference is, these folks CHOSE to come here, albeit illegally. Black slaves weren't here by choice.

I'm sure you get equally triggered by Japanese people favoring Japanese people over Koreans, blacks, and Viets in Japan too, yah?

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Reply #205 posted 08/12/19 12:48pm

2elijah

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DiminutiveRocker said:



2elijah said:


jjhunsecker said:



You hit the nail on the head !



And of course one of the imployers of undocumented workers for decades : Herr Trump himself. Who in many cases stiffed the workers and knew they had no recourse as undocumented immigrants.



Yep, I just heard yesterday, that he even has undocumented workers employed at his construction company. Busted again. [Edited 8/10/19 6:35am]


i dont know what his organization pays but considering he jilted many other hired workers/contractors that provided service to him - who will he get to do this work?


He’s now trying to set rules to limit legal immigration. He’s pretty much trying to make it harder for lower-income immigrants to come here. It’s pretty clear what the tactic behind that is.
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Reply #206 posted 08/12/19 12:50pm

jjhunsecker

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guitarslinger44 said:



jjhunsecker said:




guitarslinger44 said:




Uhh, we've had this discussion before, and I've said, maybe even in this very thread, that I believed employers should face consequences for hiring illegals.

Why are you ok with these folks being essentially used as a slave class though?




I'm not in favor of it. I simply have sympathy for desperate people doing anything they can to feed their families. I demonize the slave OWNER, not the SLAVE himself....as so many in this country seem to do.






And as Rodeo pointed out, we know where a LOT of that sentiment seems to eminate from in this country, and in Europe as well .




The difference is, these folks CHOSE to come here, albeit illegally. Black slaves weren't here by choice.

I'm sure you get equally triggered by Japanese people favoring Japanese people over Koreans, blacks, and Viets in Japan too, yah?



You're the one who made the "slave class " metaphor! I simply said I had more sympathy for the poor and desperate people who come here any way possible in order to provide for their families . I have NO sympathy for greedy business owners who choose to exploit the bad situation that the migrants are in.

I have no idea what point you're trying to make in your second paragraph. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you don't intend it to sound like a justification for racism and discrimination, because that is very similar to language used by White Nationalists
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Reply #207 posted 08/12/19 1:07pm

2elijah

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guitarslinger44 said:



jjhunsecker said:




guitarslinger44 said:




Uhh, we've had this discussion before, and I've said, maybe even in this very thread, that I believed employers should face consequences for hiring illegals.

Why are you ok with these folks being essentially used as a slave class though?




I'm not in favor of it. I simply have sympathy for desperate people doing anything they can to feed their families. I demonize the slave OWNER, not the SLAVE himself....as so many in this country seem to do.






And as Rodeo pointed out, we know where a LOT of that sentiment seems to eminate from in this country, and in Europe as well .




The difference is, these folks CHOSE to come here, albeit illegally. Black slaves weren't here by choice.

I'm sure you get equally triggered by Japanese people favoring Japanese people over Koreans, blacks, and Viets in Japan too, yah?


Here’s the thing though, most immigrants choose to come here for a better life, the same reasons many early, European immigrants came here. Unfortunately, the irony of many early, European immigrants that came here, (not all,) who were able to own slaves, chose to enslave others who were either already here (Native Americans), as well as, participating in enslaving Africans, in which they profited from. So many of those early European immigrants were basically like some bad employers (not all), today who take advantage of the undocumented’s circumstances.

Today those employers who choose to employ undocumented immigrants, doesn’t give them the right to mistreat/take advantage of the undocumented. It’s not like the undocumented are aware they’ll be treated unfairly by ‘some’ employers, when they find work here. I’m sure most that they find a way to support themselves, and hopefully able to become legal citizens, but often times that’s not easy for many.

I agree that of course we should have a fair immigration system, but right now and the fact is, there are millions of undocumented in this country, who have been here for years.

Many have children born here, and I think if they’ve been here at least 10 years plus, never committed crimes, have contributed in some form paying taxes, and their children enrolled in public schools, etc., then there should be a way they can be offered an opportunity to become citizens, down the road. We can’t just throw them all out., especially their kids where it was no fault of many of them how they ended up here. Just my view.
[Edited 8/12/19 13:15pm]
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Reply #208 posted 08/12/19 2:44pm

guitarslinger4
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jjhunsecker said:

guitarslinger44 said:


The difference is, these folks CHOSE to come here, albeit illegally. Black slaves weren't here by choice.

I'm sure you get equally triggered by Japanese people favoring Japanese people over Koreans, blacks, and Viets in Japan too, yah?

You're the one who made the "slave class " metaphor! I simply said I had more sympathy for the poor and desperate people who come here any way possible in order to provide for their families . I have NO sympathy for greedy business owners who choose to exploit the bad situation that the migrants are in. I have no idea what point you're trying to make in your second paragraph. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you don't intend it to sound like a justification for racism and discrimination, because that is very similar to language used by White Nationalists


Because these folks are beign allowed to be treated like a slave class because they don't have papers and are in fear of being caught.

The second bit was in reponse to what you said about Rodeo. But yeah you got me, total weekend white supremecist with all that "similar language" lol

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Reply #209 posted 08/12/19 2:50pm

guitarslinger4
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2elijah said:

guitarslinger44 said:


The difference is, these folks CHOSE to come here, albeit illegally. Black slaves weren't here by choice.

I'm sure you get equally triggered by Japanese people favoring Japanese people over Koreans, blacks, and Viets in Japan too, yah?

Here’s the thing though, most immigrants choose to come here for a better life, the same reasons many early, European immigrants came here. Unfortunately, the irony of many early, European immigrants that came here, (not all,) who were able to own slaves, chose to enslave others who were either already here (Native Americans), as well as, participating in enslaving Africans, in which they profited from. So many of those early European immigrants were basically like some bad employers (not all), today who take advantage of the undocumented’s circumstances. Today those employers who choose to employ undocumented immigrants, doesn’t give them the right to mistreat/take advantage of the undocumented. It’s not like the undocumented are aware they’ll be treated unfairly by ‘some’ employers, when they find work here. I’m sure most that they find a way to support themselves, and hopefully able to become legal citizens, but often times that’s not easy for many. I agree that of course we should have a fair immigration system, but right now and the fact is, there are millions of undocumented in this country, who have been here for years. Many have children born here, and I think if they’ve been here at least 10 years plus, never committed crimes, have contributed in some form paying taxes, and their children enrolled in public schools, etc., then there should be a way they can be offered an opportunity to become citizens, down the road. We can’t just throw them all out., especially their kids where it was no fault of many of them how they ended up here. Just my view. [Edited 8/12/19 13:15pm]



I agree there should be a path to citizenship for folks who have been here 10, even 5+ years with no criminal record or without being on public assistance. But folks that come here illegally and without much in the way of English language skills (like most of the illegal folks I knew and worked with in Atlanta) put themselves in a place to be exploited.

The slaves that came over here weren't here by choice and were sold into slavery a lot of the time by other Africans, so it's a completely different situation imo.

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