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Reply #60 posted 06/28/19 3:11pm

guitarslinger4
4

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jjhunsecker said:

guitarslinger44 said:



That's your opinion and you have a right to it. But anywhere you go, if you speak the language well and have knowledge of the local customs, you'll blend in a lot better than someone who doesn't.

And if you'd read the NYT article, you'd have seen that Hispanic folks are the vast majority of illegals, far more than whites, so of course you're going to hewr more about brown people getting picked up by ICE.


I don't know if you are legitimately naive in not understanding the depths of American racism and bigotry, or deliberately naive to try to make a political point.

But if you TRULY THINK that if millions of Swedes and Russians and Trump's beloved Norwegians coming into this country illegally would create the same reaction as "sp**s" , then I truly wonder if you are fully versed in American history and culture.



I bet people would get just as pissy about illegal white immigrants coming in in the numbers that that Hispanic immigrants have. In fact I know they would. How? Because they did before. When the Polish, Irish and Italians came over, they were shit on too, and they were all white. And they were largely legal at that.

The idea of millions of people coming in illegally, undercutting wages for lower skill workers, and potentially taking up resources doesn't sit well with a lot of folks and that isn't about racism as much as it's about Americans being pissed off that (lefty) politicians care more about taking care of non-citizens than they do about taking care of the people who are.

[Edited 6/28/19 15:13pm]
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Reply #61 posted 06/28/19 3:43pm

2elijah

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jjhunsecker said:

guitarslinger44 said:



jjhunsecker said:




guitarslinger44 said:





Those are the immigrants that are here illegally in the greatest numbers. If there were white immigrants from places like Canada, Europe or Scandinavia that were coming illegally in the numbers that Hispanic immigrants were, I'm sure they'd be part of this dragnet too, but folks from those areas of the world tend to stay there. Same with Asians. But those folks would all have to cross an ocean to get here and that's a much bigger expense/gamble than coming up by land.




Not true....there are tons of illegal Irish, Polish, and Russian immigrants in NYC alone (along with other major cities). And the majority of so-called illegal immigrants are those who FLY into America, and overstay their visas and never leave.






If you REALLY believe that Trump and his followers would be equally riled up by illegal WHITE immigrants....well, I'll just have to quote Michael Corleone and say "Who's being naive now, Kay ?"




You should read the Times article poppys posted on the last page. White illegal immigrants are a very small minority according to the chart in the article and, so much so that they don't even warrant their own space on the chart other than "other countries." People who come in on visas are coming here legally but then slipping into illegal status by overstaying them, I even know some people like that, whites even, and they do their best to blend in and not attract any attention which is why they don't get hassled as much.

I bet if more of the Hispanic immigrants came here with solid English skills, they would probably blend in well and not get hassled either. But someone who barely speaks english and doesn't know how things works here, they give themselves away.

Maybe Trump and his people wouldn't get as uppity about white immigrants, but they're a much much smaller number than the hispanic ones, one that barely registers in comparison, so it's all conjecture either way.



No, they give themselves away by having darker complexions and non-Caucasian features.

You yourself just said here that Whites "blend in" better.... people don't question the English nannies (I knew dozens who were here in NYC illegally) or the Irish bartender or the Polish roofer... they were "acceptable ".

But if they were dark and spoke with a Spanish accent- that's a different story!

If you don't think that's the most important factor, then sorry, but you're delusional


Yes, the thing is if trump really wanted ‘all’ illegals out, then he needs to include and complain about ‘all’ illegal immigrants. However, the problem is, he focuses more on the Black and Brown immigrants, especially those from Mexico, and speaks of them with insults/ignorance/stereotyped and misleading info. Regardless if there are more Mexican illegals coming here or not, (not saying they are) but he does target them unfairly, whether legal or illegal, while not mentioning others the same way.

I remember when they ‘allowed’ and welcomed many Russian immigrants in the U.S. in the early 90s, and a lot of them were committing heinous crimes, and a number of them related to organized crimes. Many of those immigrants were getting help from the government; only paying 1/3 rent, food stamps, welfare, and this was whole families. I used to live next door to a Russian family who received those benefits. Most of the customers at the local supermarkets, with food stamp cards, were Russian immigrants. I used to hear Lou Dobbs complaining about illegal Mexican immigrants, claiming they were taking jobs from Americans, etc., but never heard him complain about Russian immigrants, whether they were legal or illegal. Matter of fact, never heard trump complain about them either.
[Edited 6/28/19 15:45pm]
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Reply #62 posted 06/28/19 4:21pm

poppys

guitarslinger44 said:

jjhunsecker said:

I don't know if you are legitimately naive in not understanding the depths of American racism and bigotry, or deliberately naive to try to make a political point. But if you TRULY THINK that if millions of Swedes and Russians and Trump's beloved Norwegians coming into this country illegally would create the same reaction as "sp**s" , then I truly wonder if you are fully versed in American history and culture.


I bet people would get just as pissy about illegal white immigrants coming in in the numbers that that Hispanic immigrants have. In fact I know they would. How? Because they did before. When the Polish, Irish and Italians came over, they were shit on too, and they were all white. And they were largely legal at that. The idea of millions of people coming in illegally, undercutting wages for lower skill workers, and potentially taking up resources doesn't sit well with a lot of folks and that isn't about racism as much as it's about Americans being pissed off that (lefty) politicians care more about taking care of non-citizens than they do about taking care of the people who are.


The majority of immigrants to the US right now are Mexican. I didn't post the article without reading it. There are plenty of other statistics in there to back up the tradition and need for immigration here. What you are describing is the typical IGM (I got mine).

You came from immigrants unless you're Native American. Mexicans are more American than many of us. We bought much of our lands from them. Yet our president calls the entire group murderers and rapists.

politics: the art or science of government.
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Reply #63 posted 06/28/19 5:50pm

benni

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And here we had actual Nazi's settle in America illegally and nothing was done about it. They were actually helped by the CIA because they thought they could act as spies for them.


https://www.npr.org/2014/...in-the-u-s

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Reply #64 posted 06/28/19 5:54pm

jjhunsecker

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guitarslinger44 said:

jjhunsecker said:



I don't know if you are legitimately naive in not understanding the depths of American racism and bigotry, or deliberately naive to try to make a political point.

But if you TRULY THINK that if millions of Swedes and Russians and Trump's beloved Norwegians coming into this country illegally would create the same reaction as "sp**s" , then I truly wonder if you are fully versed in American history and culture.



I bet people would get just as pissy about illegal white immigrants coming in in the numbers that that Hispanic immigrants have. In fact I know they would. How? Because they did before. When the Polish, Irish and Italians came over, they were shit on too, and they were all white. And they were largely legal at that.

The idea of millions of people coming in illegally, undercutting wages for lower skill workers, and potentially taking up resources doesn't sit well with a lot of folks and that isn't about racism as much as it's about Americans being pissed off that (lefty) politicians care more about taking care of non-citizens than they do about taking care of the people who are.

[Edited 6/28/19 15:13pm]


They simply don't get as "pissy" over White illegal immigrants. I live in an area with many Irish immigrants, many of whom are illegal. Never heard anyone complaining about THEM... I personally knew several illegal English nannies... they were usually hired by wealthy families who knew their status. Nobody complained about them...

Why do those who complain so much about illegal immigrants never attack those who HIRE them? Trump himself hired undocumented immigrants at his resorts for decades. I'm not going to get that upset about desperate people who come here to support themselves by taking jobs NO AMERICAN would ever do, like picking fruit, cleaning hotel toilets, or delivering Chinese food at 2AM
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Reply #65 posted 06/28/19 5:55pm

jjhunsecker

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2elijah said:

jjhunsecker said:



No, they give themselves away by having darker complexions and non-Caucasian features.

You yourself just said here that Whites "blend in" better.... people don't question the English nannies (I knew dozens who were here in NYC illegally) or the Irish bartender or the Polish roofer... they were "acceptable ".

But if they were dark and spoke with a Spanish accent- that's a different story!

If you don't think that's the most important factor, then sorry, but you're delusional


Yes, the thing is if trump really wanted ‘all’ illegals out, then he needs to include and complain about ‘all’ illegal immigrants. However, the problem is, he focuses more on the Black and Brown immigrants, especially those from Mexico, and speaks of them with insults/ignorance/stereotyped and misleading info. Regardless if there are more Mexican illegals coming here or not, (not saying they are) but he does target them unfairly, whether legal or illegal, while not mentioning others the same way.

I remember when they ‘allowed’ and welcomed many Russian immigrants in the U.S. in the early 90s, and a lot of them were committing heinous crimes, and a number of them related to organized crimes. Many of those immigrants were getting help from the government; only paying 1/3 rent, food stamps, welfare, and this was whole families. I used to live next door to a Russian family who received those benefits. Most of the customers at the local supermarkets, with food stamp cards, were Russian immigrants. I used to hear Lou Dobbs complaining about illegal Mexican immigrants, claiming they were taking jobs from Americans, etc., but never heard him complain about Russian immigrants, whether they were legal or illegal. Matter of fact, never heard trump complain about them either.
[Edited 6/28/19 15:45pm]


A lot of those Russians learn quickly how to scam the system... but nobody seems to care very much about THEM
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Reply #66 posted 06/28/19 5:59pm

jjhunsecker

avatar

guitarslinger44 said:

jjhunsecker said:



I don't know if you are legitimately naive in not understanding the depths of American racism and bigotry, or deliberately naive to try to make a political point.

But if you TRULY THINK that if millions of Swedes and Russians and Trump's beloved Norwegians coming into this country illegally would create the same reaction as "sp**s" , then I truly wonder if you are fully versed in American history and culture.



I bet people would get just as pissy about illegal white immigrants coming in in the numbers that that Hispanic immigrants have. In fact I know they would. How? Because they did before. When the Polish, Irish and Italians came over, they were shit on too, and they were all white. And they were largely legal at that.

The idea of millions of people coming in illegally, undercutting wages for lower skill workers, and potentially taking up resources doesn't sit well with a lot of folks and that isn't about racism as much as it's about Americans being pissed off that (lefty) politicians care more about taking care of non-citizens than they do about taking care of the people who are.

[Edited 6/28/19 15:13pm]


And actually, if you study history, back in those days most "native " Americans did not consider Irish or Italian or Jews to be "white ". It was only in later decades that they assimilated and now considered part of the "white race ". In those days there was no "illegal immigration " since anyone (from Europe, not Asia or Africa) could simply come to America and live here and become a citizen, no questions asked,

And the belief that "lefty" politicians care more about "illegal immigrants " than "real Americans " is an absurd and baseless right wing canard pushed to stir up low information voters
[Edited 6/29/19 0:52am]
[Edited 6/29/19 1:00am]
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Reply #67 posted 06/28/19 9:20pm

OldFriends4Sal
e

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moderator

Gov Cuomo making it so illegal immigrants can get drivers licences is utterly stupid

https://www.democratandchronicle.com/story/news/politics/albany/2019/06/12/new-york-assembly-green-lights-drivers-licenses-undocumented-immigrants/1433936001/

But while the Assembly's passage appeared certain in recent weeks and Gov. Andrew Cuomo has vowed to sign the bill if it gets to his desk, the measure's fate remains far less clear in the Senate.

Democrats in marginal Senate districts could face political consequences for supporting a measure that polling has shown is unpo...ith voters, particular upstate and in New York City's suburbs.

At least two Assembly Democrats publicly called out their Senate counterparts, urging them to show "courage" and put the measure to a vote.

#IDEFINEME #ALBUMSSTILLMATTER

A Liar Shall Not Tarry In My Presence
I will make you cyber shit in your pants!
What's the matter with your life
Is poverty bringing U down?
Is the mailman jerking U 'round?
Did he put your million dollar check
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Reply #68 posted 06/29/19 1:06am

jjhunsecker

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In many areas of New York State, illegal immigrants live not in cities with extensive public transportation, but in suburban and rural areas, where a car is a necessity for get around. Is it better for people to be driving with no license at all, or using a fake one? Or is it better to make a pragmatic decision that might be unpopular, particularly among unyielding partisans?
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Reply #69 posted 06/29/19 6:38am

13cjk13

jjhunsecker said:

guitarslinger44 said:
I bet people would get just as pissy about illegal white immigrants coming in in the numbers that that Hispanic immigrants have. In fact I know they would. How? Because they did before. When the Polish, Irish and Italians came over, they were shit on too, and they were all white. And they were largely legal at that. The idea of millions of people coming in illegally, undercutting wages for lower skill workers, and potentially taking up resources doesn't sit well with a lot of folks and that isn't about racism as much as it's about Americans being pissed off that (lefty) politicians care more about taking care of non-citizens than they do about taking care of the people who are. [Edited 6/28/19 15:13pm]
And actually, if you study history, back in those days most "native " Americans did not consider Irish or Italian or Jews to be "white ". It was only in later decades that they assimilated and now considered part of the "white race ". In those days there was no "illegal immigration " since anyone (from Europe, not Asia or Africa) could simply come to America and live here and become a citizen, no questions asked, And the belief that "lefty" politicians care more about "illegal immigrants " than "real Americans " is an absurd and baseless right wing canard pushed to stir up low information voters [Edited 6/29/19 0:52am] [Edited 6/29/19 1:00am]

yeahthat The truth. Refreshing.

"If we had had confidence the president clearly did not commit a crime, we would have said so."
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Reply #70 posted 06/29/19 8:19am

poppys

jjhunsecker said:

In many areas of New York State, illegal immigrants live not in cities with extensive public transportation, but in suburban and rural areas, where a car is a necessity for get around. Is it better for people to be driving with no license at all, or using a fake one? Or is it better to make a pragmatic decision that might be unpopular, particularly among unyielding partisans?


What is the problem with people that aren't citizens driving legally? I don't get it. They don't deserve to drive? This way they buy insurance too.

As you've pointed out before, the current POTUS married immigrants in 2 out of 3 marriages. Melania did not use proper channels to stay here. Her family got to the US using chain migration, which Trump as President wants to abolish.

POTUS is a known sexual abuser and probable rapist. at least 16 woman have said this. Yet he loves to call a mass of people he doesn't even know criminals and rapists. And some here in the US have NO problem with that. CRAZY!

politics: the art or science of government.
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Reply #71 posted 06/30/19 8:00am

PennyPurple

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Reply #72 posted 06/30/19 4:37pm

guitarslinger4
4

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jjhunsecker said:

guitarslinger44 said:




I bet people would get just as pissy about illegal white immigrants coming in in the numbers that that Hispanic immigrants have. In fact I know they would. How? Because they did before. When the Polish, Irish and Italians came over, they were shit on too, and they were all white. And they were largely legal at that.

The idea of millions of people coming in illegally, undercutting wages for lower skill workers, and potentially taking up resources doesn't sit well with a lot of folks and that isn't about racism as much as it's about Americans being pissed off that (lefty) politicians care more about taking care of non-citizens than they do about taking care of the people who are.

[Edited 6/28/19 15:13pm]


They simply don't get as "pissy" over White illegal immigrants. I live in an area with many Irish immigrants, many of whom are illegal. Never heard anyone complaining about THEM... I personally knew several illegal English nannies... they were usually hired by wealthy families who knew their status. Nobody complained about them...

Why do those who complain so much about illegal immigrants never attack those who HIRE them? Trump himself hired undocumented immigrants at his resorts for decades. I'm not going to get that upset about desperate people who come here to support themselves by taking jobs NO AMERICAN would ever do, like picking fruit, cleaning hotel toilets, or delivering Chinese food at 2AM


I used to work at a bar that hired several illegals and am from a town with a lot of farms that hire migrants, most of whom are legal but some of whom aren't. I agree with going after employers who hire them knowingly but that also takes time money and resources. That, and it's also a canard they "these are jobs NO AMERICAN WOULD DO" because those employers would actually have to pay real wages and possibly benefits, so a lot of Americans can't actually live on those jobs. What you're advocating is essentially bringing in a new slave class.

White illegals are a much much smaller number and they blend in easier. The Mexican illegals are the largest in number, the most visible, and they don't blend in, which is why a lot of them get shit for coming here.

Some of the people who are against illegal immigration are racist, but claiming everyone who is against it is, is intellectually dishonest. But at the end of the day, regardless of race, these are all folks who are here illegally. Until crossing the border without being documented is decriminalized, they're all committing a crime.

[Edited 6/30/19 17:09pm]
[Edited 6/30/19 17:12pm]
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Reply #73 posted 06/30/19 4:49pm

guitarslinger4
4

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poppys said:



guitarslinger44 said:


jjhunsecker said:

I don't know if you are legitimately naive in not understanding the depths of American racism and bigotry, or deliberately naive to try to make a political point. But if you TRULY THINK that if millions of Swedes and Russians and Trump's beloved Norwegians coming into this country illegally would create the same reaction as "sp**s" , then I truly wonder if you are fully versed in American history and culture.



I bet people would get just as pissy about illegal white immigrants coming in in the numbers that that Hispanic immigrants have. In fact I know they would. How? Because they did before. When the Polish, Irish and Italians came over, they were shit on too, and they were all white. And they were largely legal at that. The idea of millions of people coming in illegally, undercutting wages for lower skill workers, and potentially taking up resources doesn't sit well with a lot of folks and that isn't about racism as much as it's about Americans being pissed off that (lefty) politicians care more about taking care of non-citizens than they do about taking care of the people who are.



The majority of immigrants to the US right now are Mexican. I didn't post the article without reading it. There are plenty of other statistics in there to back up the tradition and need for immigration here. What you are describing is the typical IGM (I got mine).

You came from immigrants unless you're Native American. Mexicans are more American than many of us. We bought much of our lands from them. Yet our president calls the entire group murderers and rapists.



It's not "I got mine" it's, "our population has dramatically increased since the mid 20th century and there are more people fighting for a slice of the pie." You ever notice it's rarely rich people who are against illegal immigration, it's usually poorer folks? Why do you think that is?
[Edited 6/30/19 16:51pm]
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Reply #74 posted 06/30/19 5:05pm

guitarslinger4
4

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jjhunsecker said:

guitarslinger44 said:




I bet people would get just as pissy about illegal white immigrants coming in in the numbers that that Hispanic immigrants have. In fact I know they would. How? Because they did before. When the Polish, Irish and Italians came over, they were shit on too, and they were all white. And they were largely legal at that.

The idea of millions of people coming in illegally, undercutting wages for lower skill workers, and potentially taking up resources doesn't sit well with a lot of folks and that isn't about racism as much as it's about Americans being pissed off that (lefty) politicians care more about taking care of non-citizens than they do about taking care of the people who are.

[Edited 6/28/19 15:13pm]


And actually, if you study history, back in those days most "native " Americans did not consider Irish or Italian or Jews to be "white ". It was only in later decades that they assimilated and now considered part of the "white race ". In those days there was no "illegal immigration " since anyone (from Europe, not Asia or Africa) could simply come to America and live here and become a citizen, no questions asked,

And the belief that "lefty" politicians care more about "illegal immigrants " than "real Americans " is an absurd and baseless right wing canard pushed to stir up low information voters
[Edited 6/29/19 0:52am]
[Edited 6/29/19 1:00am]


The Irish and SOME Italians were considered white, they were just alzo considered lower class. Every race has hierarchies; darker blacks are sometimes looked down on by lighter skinned ones, Japanese and Koreans tend to look down on Viets and Thais, etc. Jews have been a weird special case, many of them look white, but they were looked down on in part because they're one of the most successful groups of people across history.

It's not a canard. In an effort to appear "woke" and "not racist," these lefty politicians don't think about the effect on the existing population allowing groups to take up sanctuary in their cities has.

[Edited 6/30/19 17:06pm]
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Reply #75 posted 06/30/19 6:10pm

jjhunsecker

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guitarslinger44 said:

jjhunsecker said:



They simply don't get as "pissy" over White illegal immigrants. I live in an area with many Irish immigrants, many of whom are illegal. Never heard anyone complaining about THEM... I personally knew several illegal English nannies... they were usually hired by wealthy families who knew their status. Nobody complained about them...

Why do those who complain so much about illegal immigrants never attack those who HIRE them? Trump himself hired undocumented immigrants at his resorts for decades. I'm not going to get that upset about desperate people who come here to support themselves by taking jobs NO AMERICAN would ever do, like picking fruit, cleaning hotel toilets, or delivering Chinese food at 2AM


I used to work at a bar that hired several illegals and am from a town with a lot of farms that hire migrants, most of whom are legal but some of whom aren't. I agree with going after employers who hire them knowingly but that also takes time money and resources. That, and it's also a canard they "these are jobs NO AMERICAN WOULD DO" because those employers would actually have to pay real wages and possibly benefits, so a lot of Americans can't actually live on those jobs. What you're advocating is essentially bringing in a new slave class.

White illegals are a much much smaller number and they blend in easier. The Mexican illegals are the largest in number, the most visible, and they don't blend in, which is why a lot of them get shit for coming here.

Some of the people who are against illegal immigration are racist, but claiming everyone who is against it is, is intellectually dishonest. But at the end of the day, regardless of race, these are all folks who are here illegally. Until crossing the border without being documented is decriminalized, they're all committing a crime.

[Edited 6/30/19 17:09pm]
[Edited 6/30/19 17:12pm]


One thing you said that's accurate- the White illegal immigrants "blend in " easier, because they, well, are WHITE...

I think you've been really downplaying how much race and ethnicity plays into this debate. If it wasn't a factor, then people (including yourself) would be demanding that the complete truth about Melania Trump and her family were allowed into this country... I mean, fair is fair, right, no matter what the number of that specific ethnicity came in ? Or are SOME considered "acceptable " ?
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Reply #76 posted 06/30/19 6:20pm

jjhunsecker

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guitarslinger44 said:

jjhunsecker said:



They simply don't get as "pissy" over White illegal immigrants. I live in an area with many Irish immigrants, many of whom are illegal. Never heard anyone complaining about THEM... I personally knew several illegal English nannies... they were usually hired by wealthy families who knew their status. Nobody complained about them...

Why do those who complain so much about illegal immigrants never attack those who HIRE them? Trump himself hired undocumented immigrants at his resorts for decades. I'm not going to get that upset about desperate people who come here to support themselves by taking jobs NO AMERICAN would ever do, like picking fruit, cleaning hotel toilets, or delivering Chinese food at 2AM


I used to work at a bar that hired several illegals and am from a town with a lot of farms that hire migrants, most of whom are legal but some of whom aren't. I agree with going after employers who hire them knowingly but that also takes time money and resources. That, and it's also a canard they "these are jobs NO AMERICAN WOULD DO" because those employers would actually have to pay real wages and possibly benefits, so a lot of Americans can't actually live on those jobs. What you're advocating is essentially bringing in a new slave class.

White illegals are a much much smaller number and they blend in easier. The Mexican illegals are the largest in number, the most visible, and they don't blend in, which is why a lot of them get shit for coming here.

Some of the people who are against illegal immigration are racist, but claiming everyone who is against it is, is intellectually dishonest. But at the end of the day, regardless of race, these are all folks who are here illegally. Until crossing the border without being documented is decriminalized, they're all committing a crime.

[Edited 6/30/19 17:09pm]
[Edited 6/30/19 17:12pm]


Plus, if you read me correctly, I'm one of the people who are critical of the bosses who prefer to hire undocumented immigrants that they can exploit. They SHOULD be paying decent wages (and taxes). But it's amusing to me that people take their anger out on the desperate people who take those jobs to do anything to survive (ESPECIALLY if they are Hispanic), but say almost nothing about the exploitive employers (who are mainly White, and included Trump himself)
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Reply #77 posted 06/30/19 6:28pm

poppys

guitarslinger44 said:

poppys said:


The majority of immigrants to the US right now are Mexican. I didn't post the article without reading it. There are plenty of other statistics in there to back up the tradition and need for immigration here. What you are describing is the typical IGM (I got mine).

You came from immigrants unless you're Native American. Mexicans are more American than many of us. We bought much of our lands from them. Yet our president calls the entire group murderers and rapists.


It's not "I got mine" it's, "our population has dramatically increased since the mid 20th century and there are more people fighting for a slice of the pie." You ever notice it's rarely rich people who are against illegal immigration, it's usually poorer folks? Why do you think that is?


No, it's still I got mine. Your ancestors came, probably in a wave, just like Mexicans and Central Americans are now. Because you got here first, you think you have a right to be here (I got mine) and they don't, so you are using arbitrary reasons why it's worse now. Actually the same reasons Trump is using.

politics: the art or science of government.
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Reply #78 posted 06/30/19 6:50pm

guitarslinger4
4

avatar

jjhunsecker said:

guitarslinger44 said:



I used to work at a bar that hired several illegals and am from a town with a lot of farms that hire migrants, most of whom are legal but some of whom aren't. I agree with going after employers who hire them knowingly but that also takes time money and resources. That, and it's also a canard they "these are jobs NO AMERICAN WOULD DO" because those employers would actually have to pay real wages and possibly benefits, so a lot of Americans can't actually live on those jobs. What you're advocating is essentially bringing in a new slave class.

White illegals are a much much smaller number and they blend in easier. The Mexican illegals are the largest in number, the most visible, and they don't blend in, which is why a lot of them get shit for coming here.

Some of the people who are against illegal immigration are racist, but claiming everyone who is against it is, is intellectually dishonest. But at the end of the day, regardless of race, these are all folks who are here illegally. Until crossing the border without being documented is decriminalized, they're all committing a crime.

[Edited 6/30/19 17:09pm]
[Edited 6/30/19 17:12pm]


One thing you said that's accurate- the White illegal immigrants "blend in " easier, because they, well, are WHITE...

I think you've been really downplaying how much race and ethnicity plays into this debate. If it wasn't a factor, then people (including yourself) would be demanding that the complete truth about Melania Trump and her family were allowed into this country... I mean, fair is fair, right, no matter what the number of that specific ethnicity came in ? Or are SOME considered "acceptable " ?


Strawmanning like a mug here lol I already admitted for some people it's about race but that's the least important aspect of the whole issue. Melania got in because Trump and his money paid her way. You think she didn't have to give to get?
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Reply #79 posted 06/30/19 6:54pm

guitarslinger4
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jjhunsecker said:

guitarslinger44 said:



I used to work at a bar that hired several illegals and am from a town with a lot of farms that hire migrants, most of whom are legal but some of whom aren't. I agree with going after employers who hire them knowingly but that also takes time money and resources. That, and it's also a canard they "these are jobs NO AMERICAN WOULD DO" because those employers would actually have to pay real wages and possibly benefits, so a lot of Americans can't actually live on those jobs. What you're advocating is essentially bringing in a new slave class.

White illegals are a much much smaller number and they blend in easier. The Mexican illegals are the largest in number, the most visible, and they don't blend in, which is why a lot of them get shit for coming here.

Some of the people who are against illegal immigration are racist, but claiming everyone who is against it is, is intellectually dishonest. But at the end of the day, regardless of race, these are all folks who are here illegally. Until crossing the border without being documented is decriminalized, they're all committing a crime.

[Edited 6/30/19 17:09pm]
[Edited 6/30/19 17:12pm]


Plus, if you read me correctly, I'm one of the people who are critical of the bosses who prefer to hire undocumented immigrants that they can exploit. They SHOULD be paying decent wages (and taxes). But it's amusing to me that people take their anger out on the desperate people who take those jobs to do anything to survive (ESPECIALLY if they are Hispanic), but say almost nothing about the exploitive employers (who are mainly White, and included Trump himself)


So just to be clear, you're good with the importation of what is essentially a slave class to be exploited because they decided not to immigrate legally? I already agreed with you about the predatory employers, but if these folks had papers, decent English skills, and a better lay of the land, they would be able to get better jobs. The reason they're stuck getting exploitative jobs is because they don't have skills to do anything that requires good communication skills or a SSN.
[Edited 6/30/19 19:02pm]
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Reply #80 posted 06/30/19 6:58pm

guitarslinger4
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poppys said:



guitarslinger44 said:


poppys said:



The majority of immigrants to the US right now are Mexican. I didn't post the article without reading it. There are plenty of other statistics in there to back up the tradition and need for immigration here. What you are describing is the typical IGM (I got mine).

You came from immigrants unless you're Native American. Mexicans are more American than many of us. We bought much of our lands from them. Yet our president calls the entire group murderers and rapists.




It's not "I got mine" it's, "our population has dramatically increased since the mid 20th century and there are more people fighting for a slice of the pie." You ever notice it's rarely rich people who are against illegal immigration, it's usually poorer folks? Why do you think that is?


No, it's still I got mine. Your ancestors came, probably in a wave, just like Mexicans and Central Americans are now. Because you got here first, you think you have a right to be here (I got mine) and they don't, so you are using arbitrary reasons why it's worse now. Actually the same reasons Trump is using.




Regardless, my ancestors didn't sneak in. I have no problem with any immigrants that come here and do it by the books. In fact, a lot of the Hispanic immigrants I've known can't stand illegals because it gives them a bad name to people who don't know that they've done it the right way.
[Edited 6/30/19 19:00pm]
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Reply #81 posted 06/30/19 9:01pm

jjhunsecker

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guitarslinger44 said:

jjhunsecker said:



One thing you said that's accurate- the White illegal immigrants "blend in " easier, because they, well, are WHITE...

I think you've been really downplaying how much race and ethnicity plays into this debate. If it wasn't a factor, then people (including yourself) would be demanding that the complete truth about Melania Trump and her family were allowed into this country... I mean, fair is fair, right, no matter what the number of that specific ethnicity came in ? Or are SOME considered "acceptable " ?


Strawmanning like a mug here lol I already admitted for some people it's about race but that's the least important aspect of the whole issue. Melania got in because Trump and his money paid her way. You think she didn't have to give to get?


This is where we differ- because I believe for MOST people it's about RACE
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Reply #82 posted 06/30/19 9:04pm

jjhunsecker

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poppys said:



guitarslinger44 said:


poppys said:



The majority of immigrants to the US right now are Mexican. I didn't post the article without reading it. There are plenty of other statistics in there to back up the tradition and need for immigration here. What you are describing is the typical IGM (I got mine).

You came from immigrants unless you're Native American. Mexicans are more American than many of us. We bought much of our lands from them. Yet our president calls the entire group murderers and rapists.




It's not "I got mine" it's, "our population has dramatically increased since the mid 20th century and there are more people fighting for a slice of the pie." You ever notice it's rarely rich people who are against illegal immigration, it's usually poorer folks? Why do you think that is?


No, it's still I got mine. Your ancestors came, probably in a wave, just like Mexicans and Central Americans are now. Because you got here first, you think you have a right to be here (I got mine) and they don't, so you are using arbitrary reasons why it's worse now. Actually the same reasons Trump is using.



And actually, at the turn of the 20th century, when most European immigrants came here, that's all they had to do- just show up
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Reply #83 posted 06/30/19 9:20pm

jjhunsecker

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guitarslinger44 said:

jjhunsecker said:



Plus, if you read me correctly, I'm one of the people who are critical of the bosses who prefer to hire undocumented immigrants that they can exploit. They SHOULD be paying decent wages (and taxes). But it's amusing to me that people take their anger out on the desperate people who take those jobs to do anything to survive (ESPECIALLY if they are Hispanic), but say almost nothing about the exploitive employers (who are mainly White, and included Trump himself)


So just to be clear, you're good with the importation of what is essentially a slave class to be exploited because they decided not to immigrate legally? I already agreed with you about the predatory employers, but if these folks had papers, decent English skills, and a better lay of the land, they would be able to get better jobs. The reason they're stuck getting exploitative jobs is because they don't have skills to do anything that requires good communication skills or a SSN.
[Edited 6/30/19 19:02pm]


A misreading of my point- I have sympathy for desperate people who are escaping extreme poverty and violence, who would do anything for their families. Most of them are willing to work harder than the average American. I don't demonize or hate these folks, and as an extremely wealthy friend of mine once said, if I was in their shoes and knew that if I crossed that border I could support my family, or even save them from violence or death, I wouldn't hesitate for a moment
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Reply #84 posted 06/30/19 9:24pm

jjhunsecker

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guitarslinger44 said:

jjhunsecker said:



One thing you said that's accurate- the White illegal immigrants "blend in " easier, because they, well, are WHITE...

I think you've been really downplaying how much race and ethnicity plays into this debate. If it wasn't a factor, then people (including yourself) would be demanding that the complete truth about Melania Trump and her family were allowed into this country... I mean, fair is fair, right, no matter what the number of that specific ethnicity came in ? Or are SOME considered "acceptable " ?


Strawmanning like a mug here lol I already admitted for some people it's about race but that's the least important aspect of the whole issue. Melania got in because Trump and his money paid her way. You think she didn't have to give to get?


BTW- not "strawmanning" at all- YOU mentioned several times about "blending in"... I'm simply pointing out it's not that easy to "blend in" when you don't look or sound different from those around you
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Reply #85 posted 06/30/19 9:27pm

guitarslinger4
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jjhunsecker said:

guitarslinger44 said:



So just to be clear, you're good with the importation of what is essentially a slave class to be exploited because they decided not to immigrate legally? I already agreed with you about the predatory employers, but if these folks had papers, decent English skills, and a better lay of the land, they would be able to get better jobs. The reason they're stuck getting exploitative jobs is because they don't have skills to do anything that requires good communication skills or a SSN.
[Edited 6/30/19 19:02pm]


A misreading of my point- I have sympathy for desperate people who are escaping extreme poverty and violence, who would do anything for their families. Most of them are willing to work harder than the average American. I don't demonize or hate these folks, and as an extremely wealthy friend of mine once said, if I was in their shoes and knew that if I crossed that border I could support my family, or even save them from violence or death, I wouldn't hesitate for a moment


I'll admit I was being extreme with your point because a lot of these folks end up in bad situations BECAUSE they're undocumented and end up having to accept shitty circumstances because they're afraid of being caught. I've seen it firsthand and it sucks.

I agree with pretty much everything you posted here tho. I even support amnesty and a path to citizenship for people who are here illegally and can show they can support themselves and pass English competency tests.

[Edited 6/30/19 21:27pm]
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Reply #86 posted 07/01/19 5:59am

benni

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jjhunsecker said:

guitarslinger44 said:
Strawmanning like a mug here lol I already admitted for some people it's about race but that's the least important aspect of the whole issue. Melania got in because Trump and his money paid her way. You think she didn't have to give to get?
This is where we differ- because I believe for MOST people it's about RACE


I agree. For most people, it *is* about race. It is only with hispanic and latino individuals that you have people telling them, "You're in America now, you speak American here." You don't hear that with people that speak Chinese, Russian, etc. Go into any authentic Chinese or Japenese restaurant and you will hear native foreigners speaking their own language, and there is no one insisting they learn to speak English. It is only with people of color (including latina and hispanic folks, as well as black people) that you hear someone yelling, "Go back to your own country!" I have yet to hear them yell that at someone that is speaking Russian, Chinese, Japenese, Dutch, etc.

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Reply #87 posted 07/01/19 8:26am

2elijah

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jjhunsecker said:

2elijah said:



Yes, the thing is if trump really wanted ‘all’ illegals out, then he needs to include and complain about ‘all’ illegal immigrants. However, the problem is, he focuses more on the Black and Brown immigrants, especially those from Mexico, and speaks of them with insults/ignorance/stereotyped and misleading info. Regardless if there are more Mexican illegals coming here or not, (not saying they are) but he does target them unfairly, whether legal or illegal, while not mentioning others the same way.

I remember when they ‘allowed’ and welcomed many Russian immigrants in the U.S. in the early 90s, and a lot of them were committing heinous crimes, and a number of them related to organized crimes. Many of those immigrants were getting help from the government; only paying 1/3 rent, food stamps, welfare, and this was whole families. I used to live next door to a Russian family who received those benefits. Most of the customers at the local supermarkets, with food stamp cards, were Russian immigrants. I used to hear Lou Dobbs complaining about illegal Mexican immigrants, claiming they were taking jobs from Americans, etc., but never heard him complain about Russian immigrants, whether they were legal or illegal. Matter of fact, never heard trump complain about them either.
[Edited 6/28/19 15:45pm]


A lot of those Russians learn quickly how to scam the system... but nobody seems to care very much about THEM

Exactly, and they’re still doing it. Just go to certain areas in Flushing, Queens in the local supermarkets, and see who has the food stamp cards.

The Black American residents pay with cash, debit/credit cards. Many Russian immigrants are prejudiced against the Black Americans who have been in certain areas for years. and they turn their noses up at Black Americans, as though we are the immigrants. Many of the Russian immigrants get sucked into the stereotyped, ignorance of American racism.

As far as speaking English, many of the elderly ones don’t speak English, and they’re not trying to. You certainly never hear trump complaining about them.

No one seems to have a problem with that, but yet demanding Mexicans who come here legal or illegal learn to speak proper English, and degrade them as animals.
[Edited 7/1/19 8:26am]
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Reply #88 posted 07/06/19 12:44am

DiminutiveRock
er

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2elijah said:

jjhunsecker said:
A lot of those Russians learn quickly how to scam the system... but nobody seems to care very much about THEM
Exactly, and they’re still doing it. Just go to certain areas in Flushing, Queens in the local supermarkets, and see who has the food stamp cards. The Black American residents pay with cash, debit/credit cards. Many Russian immigrants are prejudiced against the Black Americans who have been in certain areas for years. and they turn their noses up at Black Americans, as though we are the immigrants. Many of the Russian immigrants get sucked into the stereotyped, ignorance of American racism. As far as speaking English, many of the elderly ones don’t speak English, and they’re not trying to. You certainly never hear trump complaining about them. No one seems to have a problem with that, but yet demanding Mexicans who come here legal or illegal learn to speak proper English, and degrade them as animals. [Edited 7/1/19 8:26am]

The suggestion that these dirt poor people from Honduras and El Salvador who immigrate here seeking asylum, to escape tyranny, just to work and support their families should take English competency tests is beyond ridiculous.

"Families are torn apart, men women and children are separated. Children come home from school to find their parents have gone missing." - Anne Frank
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Reply #89 posted 07/06/19 6:01am

PennyPurple

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I don't understand why these children aren't housed with their Moms or Dad's? They said that children are trying to take care of the little ones, even changing their diapers, if they even have diapers.

These are deplorable conditions and something has to be done.


And this stupid Facebook page that these employee's are in, pisses me off too.

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